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PostPosted: 12 Sep 2016, 04:39 
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It turns out that my Zephaniah meter had some invalid elisions, so I started from scratch. This time, I did what I should have done in the first place. I did a total syllable count (counting all potential shewa syllables), and started eliding as I read the text. This is just Samex 1, but it is in a word doc format, so you can test alternate elisions yourself if you like. Hopefully I will be following up with Samex 2&3 soon. Let me know if you need a PDF copy.

I'm attaching an alternate version (PDF format to avoid problems), with different elisions. [updated 4/15/2017]


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Zephaniah Samex 1 full syll potential.docx [14.02 KiB]
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Last edited by Anonynomenon on 15 Apr 2017, 06:02, edited 9 times in total.
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PostPosted: 12 Sep 2016, 22:31 
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Okay, figured out the dates:
Zeph is contemporary of Jeremiah, who mentored Josiah.
Zeph1 written 642 BC, which is
56 years before Isaiah 53's prediction of Temple Fall (reinforced in Ezekiel and Jeremiah w the 70's)
35 years after Manasseh was age 21 (age of accountability)
21 years after Manasseh was age 35 (when he went south spiritually)
with Manasseh himself, then age 56 (not dead, but retired).
EQUIDISTANCE.
Daniel 9:11-12 uses 58 (Manasseh's age at death) as back to back bookends, see its Chrono Chart, http://www.brainout.net/DAN9V4-19HebOnePagerPARSED.pdf

I didn't know Manasseh age at death when writing up the Daniel piece. Someday will have to edit it. 2Kings/Chron text says he was 12 when Hez died, ruled 55 years but that includes the 12, for Hez made Manesseh co-ruler at the latter's birth. Not sure where I can prove that in Bible via text, but the MATH works that way.


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PostPosted: 17 Sep 2016, 03:27 
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Jer of Jeremiah is concatenation of yarum (exalted) and Yah so I'd translated that God is Exalted (see Isaiah 52:13).

Zeph of Zephaniah is tsafon meaning to hide a treasure, so God is Hidden Treasure.

Jos of Josiah is supposed to be help/support, but I don't know what root. Seems to me it should really be shua of yasha, but I can't prove that. The lexicons are HORRIBLE at not parsing names.

Josiah was predicted to Jeroboam in 1Kings13:2. So there is probably a timing meter connected somewhere. 1Kings 12:12 records the Jeroboam rebellion, which had to be in 930BC when Rehoboam first took over. So maybe there is a dateline in 1Kings 13 to tell you when that prediction was made (or wherever 1Kings 13 really starts, going by the samex or feh markers). Just going by the text, it looks like Chapter 12 continues in 13, no break, and the year of the prophecy is still 930BC or so.

Josiah prophecy is fulfilled in 2Kings 23:15ff. Looks like still in his 18th year so about age 26-27 (counting from age 8 when Amon/Manasseh die). So that year would be 640-18, 622. Jeremiah was then ministering to him for five years, and in the same year LOL Jer FOUND BIBLE which no one knew of (you know, the 'book' even Jer's dad, HiIGH PRIEST Hilkiah didn't know what it was, so he had to ask cleaning-lady Huldah, 2Kings 22).

So 930-622, is 308. Kinda meaningful, in your Zeph meter!

Passages on Manasseh et al. are 2Kings21ff and 2Chron33ff.

So God-Hidden-Treasure ministers to God-My-Help and is later helped (pun intended) by God-Is-Exalted.

. :-? :conspiracy: .


The chrono is tricky. Manasseh born 698BC, crowned at birth by Hez. That date is 3 years after Hez prayer to be healed (he was childless at the time). Hez dies 686 BC, 12 years later; Manasseh thus has 55 total years -12, so 33 to go. But when Hez dies, Manasseh is almost 13, cuz when 56 in the timeline, Amon takes over; so Manasseh is STILL ALIVE, at age 56.
. :oops: :empathy3: .

So Amon kept alive only while Manasseh is; when the latter dies, Amon is assassinated, then the people repent, kill assassins and put Josiah in place; who by then is 8 years old, so is 6 or maybe 5 years old when Amon crowned.
. :matrix: .

Jeremiah comes in 13th year when Josiah is newly age of accountability, age 20 or 21. The prior year, of his own accord he started cleaning out the Temple, which implies he was 21 when Jer came to him.
. :robot: .

Zeph comes in Josiah's FIRST year, when he was only 5/6; the REGENT was impacted by Zeph ministry, with child king Josiah, listening. Amon didn't like it, undoing what his dad Manasseh did. Note this means Amon sired Josiah when Amon only age 15/16, so we have a Nero (teenager) problem.
. :starwars: .

When did Manasseh get captured by the Assyrians? I thought age 49, but now not sure. Maybe your Zeph 35 also refers that capture year, with the 21 dateline. Seriously need to parse Kings and Chronicles cuz they HAVE to be metered. Kill me now.

Text says Josiah ruled 31 years net of Amon, so Josiah must have been crowned when Amon was. So 642BC is Amon w Josiah co-ruling.

Then all the datelines fit, including the weird stress in Daniel 9:11-12 on the paired 58 meters (i.e., snub that too late for Passover or Pentecost), which must reference Manasseh at death.

But now hear this! The 35 and 21 Zeph1 datelines are.. PALINDROMES!!!
'How?' you ask.

    USING ISAIAH 53 AS TIME MAP (teeheehee Zeph like Daniel, uses Isaiah 53 as a time map, yes!)
  • 56 is Manasseh's AGE when Zeph1 written;
  • if you count back 35, you get.. 21, which is when he reached age of accountability.
  • And when you count back 21 from 56, you get.. Amon's own birth,
  • so Amon age 21-accountable which accounts for the text on him (note some few months later in same year, he gets crowned and he's then 22).
  • PALINDROME 21 in either direction!

    But that's not all (now I sound like a Ginzu knives infomercial)...
  • 56 years LATER is Temple Down.
  • So it's clearly DELIBERATELY 642 BC writing date.
  • M baby is not dead yet (when the 56 palindrome begins),
  • Amon AND Josiah are newly crowned TOGETHER,
  • so that pairing of 58's in Daniel 9:11-12 references THEM hahahahahaha

Whew. I've been agonizing over those paired 58's for YEARS.
(Sneaky palindrome Daniel inserted, so clearly DANIEL is looking at Zeph AND Isaiah 53 AND Kings AND Chronicles AND Jeremiah all at the same time!)

35 years later (after 642), is.. 607, the FIRST DEPORTATION, the one DANIEL will be in!

Someone please kill me. I shouldn't get to see this and live.

Okay, so matching up to Isaiah 53, which Zeph1 TRACKS:
  • Isaiah 53:1's uzeroah yehwah is FOUR syllables,
  • at the end of which it's 698BC and M is born.
  • 56 syllables later is Isa53:3's ish makhovot widua -- at 'wi', it's 642BC, and notice the DUA is TWO syllables for the TWO years of KNOWING (GRIEF, holi, and of course he dies at the beginning of holi).

Please someone kill me. The precision. The pain and yet grace (good ending report card on Manasseh who did go faithful in the end). Reminds one of Revelation 3.

Finally, when calculating one keeps on having to round up or down 1. Mid-year stuff. Or flipping fiscals. I can't tell for sure which fiscal year Isaiah is using, and whether he keeps using the same one. The regnal year is based on vernal equinox, but the civil year on the autumnal. (Same problem when dating Roman Emperors or rulers.)


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PostPosted: 22 Sep 2016, 10:53 
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Okay, I see why you're thinking ne'um YHWH is anaphora. Maybe it is. Amen legw humin certainly is an equivalent, and we know THAT is anaphora.


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PostPosted: 22 Sep 2016, 20:43 
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I was thinking the same thing, that amein lego humin was a shift from 3rd person to 1st person, from the original n'um Yehwah. However, it doesn't run through the entire Zeph meter like it did in Matt 24-25. So if it is anaphora, then why does it end in Samex 2?

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PostPosted: 22 Sep 2016, 21:24 
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Good question. Seems like a timeline to me. Surely is one, tracking Isaiah, but why does it stop then at 12BC? Is there a 7 ellipsis? Why doesn't it stop at 33 BC like Isaiah does, WITH his ellipsis?

Enquiring minds, want to know. :P

See, here's the weird thing: if I insert the 364 ellipsis just after Isa53 verse 10 -- which ends at the end of the historical voting period Daniel keeps tracking to, 397BC when Malachi completed -- it works fine.

But it also works fine, if I insert the 364 at the end of verse 11. The hiatus in THAT case, takes me from 397-28-364, to 5 BC, the Annunciation.

I'm thinking the intertestamental years are highlighted, so peg the 364 after verse 10. Cuz I can't see why 367 would instead be stressed. Also, the syntactical break between v.10's DECREE and v.11's Him actually paying in TIME, seems more aptly suited to a 'year' in between, as a way of saying 'history' versus eternity past (v10).


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PostPosted: 23 Sep 2016, 01:19 
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I doubt the timeline stops at 12 BC. Samex 3 needs to be counted, and I bet it will take us to 4200 give or take 14 years. I metered it a few years ago and got 119, but I want to try it again.

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PostPosted: 23 Sep 2016, 01:22 
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Okay, but there are a total of six samez's, last one lacks the letter, since ends the book. I'm trying to figure out why.

Seems to me that if what you say about samex 3 is true, the total should be 736 or 742. Daniel 9's total, is 742. Leaves out 56 from 5250 (in short, he sevens the count).

BTW, looks like Zeph1:4a is mistranslated. Hebrew says God will stretch His Hand OVER Judah and Jerusalem, and in the meter that year (at end of clause), is 516AD when the 2nd Temple completes. So read as PROTECTION, then the following clause about removing the Ba'als, makes more sense.

Back at the end of Zeph 1:3, the end of verse 3, 49 submeter, is when Daniel 9 datelines first, so Daniel is probably looking at Zeph 1:3, as well. At the point he prays, 538BC, indeed the Land was desolate.

Problem is, the Hebrew is adamah, not ha eretz. Why? I don't know.

Do you have the Thieme tapes on Zephaniah? I think I have reels, will have to go look. I've not studied that book.


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PostPosted: 23 Sep 2016, 04:03 
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I don't have Thieme's Zeph lessons. I'm still in Rev. Once I get past the 6th Seal, I want to start alternating with Jeshurun lessons.

What year did Thieme do Zeph?

Maybe HaAdamah is being used to mean the world, where HaEretz is used for the promised land???

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PostPosted: 23 Sep 2016, 08:05 
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Well, I'll have to look up when Thieme did Zeph. It's in his pdf files, I'll have to find where I put them. Found the pdf, it's here: http://brainout.net/frankforum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=379&p=3009#p3009 BUT I CANNOT FIND ZEPHANIAH in it. I could swear I have reels. Will have to go look. I wonder where I put them (I have like 15,000 reels).

Okay, I found my checklist of the tapes I have. No Zeph taught, not even in the early catalogue. Malachi was 1968. Since Zeph preceded Jer, maybe the Zeph stuff is somehow taught alongside Jer. That series is VERY long, I have multiple reels of it. Not sure when I can get to it pre-surgery, tho.

As for ha Adamah vs Ha Eretz, that's a conundrum. Perhaps a parallel to Deut 32:8, idea that all history hangs on Israel, and that the prophecy of Temple Down means Earth Down if not healed, but that verse 4 in HEBREW (not English) seems to be a reassurance that God stretches His Hand OVER Israel to protect her, so that staves off the end of ha Adamah. There is no 'against' in the Hebrew I can see, but rather AL (over). Then the text promises to remove the Ba'als, etc which fits the protection idea.

The 418 BC is bald enough (syll 224 in Zeph1), prophecy of OT completion, ergo 'silence' (cuz listening, I'd bet). It equals Malachi 1:1 dateline 14, walks back to Nehemiah at END, and then Malachi 1:2 dateline 35, walks back to START Nehemiah, 12th year of Artaxerxes Longiamanus (465-425).

But 42 years later, is 376, and I'm not sure I get what's pegged. Malachi might have the answer in some prophetic passage, likely in Malachi 3, which is the last chapter. So I'm stuck again.

Closest thing I found re 376 was this. Seems to say the turning point in Persian suzerainty was that battle, which was crippled in part due to politicking among the Royal Family back home in Susa. But I don't think Zeph is stressing Persia. Has to be something re Israel's involvement that year, since the Zeph 1:8 TEXT is about punishing Israel's PRINCES. It's got to be very important, to be likened to the very DAY of the Lord.

I need historical corroboration. Or, something prophetic and timed in Malachi? Maybe it's in the Maccabees; though not scripture, often historically accurate. But 1 Macc opens up after Alex dies.

Okay, this might be important. Ha Adamah is only used in Zeph 1:2 and 1:3. Beg in Zeph2, it's ha eretz. Text SEEMS to indicate that Zeph1 is the decree, and Zeph2 and 3 are what to do to avoid it being carried out, idea that if Israel (re)turns and becomes faithful, Zech1 won't happen or won't happen against her.

Also, note:
642BC-4106=3464FAF
-5250=1786 years left on the clock (pre-Church) to end Mill.
-630 total in the first two samexes
1156 is remainder in the final four?

Maybe there are ellipsis insertions. Given how Zeph ends, I expect some, maybe?

Next, Jeremiah would elab on Zeph, as would Ezekiel, and for sure Ezekiel covers the Mill, so we might not know what Zeph covers, but at least it can be preliminarily mapped.


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PostPosted: 24 Sep 2016, 08:59 
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PS I'm having trouble reconciling the TEXT with the meter. Years still fine, but between 418BC and 299BC, text seems to be pointing at events within Israel, not Persia or Greece per se. I suspect other Bible books will elaborate on Zeph prophecy data, so we know what it means. But vetting it historically might be a pistol, as it's the intertestamentary period. Maccabees doesn't pick up until the Diadochi wars. Daniel 11 covers the interim in a sweeping marital way, and Mary tags it, but that's from 305BC onward.


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PostPosted: 01 Oct 2016, 13:09 
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Okay, I think much of the 418BC onward meter is resolved as to WHAT it references. But I'll start with the end, verse 18:

I think it needs to be broken into two clauses at the end, not the 17 shown. The revision would be 10 and 7,
As 10: כִּֽי־כָלָ֤ה־נִבְהָלָה֙ יַֽעֲ שֶׂ֔ה
As 7: אֵ֥ת כָּל־יֹשְׁבֵ֖י הָאָֽרֶץ׃

That last 7, lines up with Isaiah 53:11's penultimate clause for the same 18-12BC period,
tsadiq avdi l'rabbim. Each are 7 syllables, from start of 18BC to end of 12BC.
Makes sense that Zeph would tag Isaiah.

What makes this so cool, is that once the Temple is up, it is REPRESENTING the Isaiah text and the 'kaleh' in Zeph 1:18, esp. since 'end' signifies completion. Herod apparently finished Temple PRECINCT completion in (642-630) 12BC, which would enable mass visitors and storage, shops, etc.

Also means that Isa53's 364 ellipsis is between its verses 10-11, not 11 and 12, else this tag wouldn't work.

Earlier, Zeph notably benchmarks at syll 602, 40 BC which Mary used as her 35 dateline to also benchmark when Herod finished subduing Israel (and I suspect, her own birth year, but can't yet prove). So that's before Isaiah 53:11 picks up, 7 years prior. But it's evocative of Isaiah 53:12 cuz that verse is 42 syllables, haha. Which, Mary also uses. Can't be coincidence.


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PostPosted: 29 Oct 2016, 22:40 
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I updated the original post with the new Zeph Meter which includes Samex 3.

Something remarkable that I noticed is the last line of Zamex 3.

Quote:
וְעֶקְרֹ֖ון תֵּעָקֵֽר׃


It reads "Ekron/Eqeron will be uprooted" (We'Eqeron te'aqer), but the name Ekron/Eqron comes from the word eqer which means transplanted. So it looks like Zephaniah counted the shewa in We'eqron to achieve We'eqeron. Without this, the meter would be short by one syllable. Very clever.

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PostPosted: 30 Oct 2016, 05:55 
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OMG 756 total? 14 more than Daniel 9? Kill me now. Got to study it more. Of particular interest is Zeph2:1, where you broke it as 4 and 8. Zeph 1 ends at 12 BC. So 2:1 ends at 0BC. Not sure what to make of that. I wonder if the timeline starts over. Given that period covers Christ and the pivot growing out from Him, I'd expect to see it seven sooner?

LOL go look up the LXX for Zeph2:4, they use the same wordplay you do. Apparently Ekron was already a Greek word? See how the LXX covers it: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lxx/zep/2/1/s_908001

ISBE and the other dictionaries/lexicons treat the wordplay as follows:
Ekron means FIRMLY ROOTED. See here (tho what I say below comes from Bibleworks' copy of ISBE http://biblehub.com/topical/e/ekron.htm ).

So God is saying the FIRMLY ROOTED shall be UPROOTED, not merely transplanted, tho that idea is in there too. That's the history of the place. The ARK was uprooted and sent to Firmly Rooted, who voted to uproot the Ark and send it back to Israel, and then uprooted against Sargon II, then in 701 uprooted Sennacherib's pawn Padi, sending him to Hezekiah. Senny baby then uprooted FIRMLY ROOTED by invading it, and set siege to Jerusalem to get Padi back, Hezekiah relenting. But that means Senny came back a SECOND TIME, laid siege to Jeru again (2Kings 18ff; this is my smoking gun for Isaiah 53's timing, I've been looking for it since 2008). Hez prayed and God killed 185K of Senny's troops there (Isaiah 37, 1Kings19). Senny then goes home in shame and his own kids kill him in his own act of worship (ibid and proof extra-Biblically, too). By then, Hez had been dead about five years (compare 2Kings 19-21, Isa38).

Read this, on Ekron and Senny: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ekron

Ekron is central to Isaiah 53.
Timeline, from 2Kings 18ff:
724-721BC (approx), Shalmaneser takes all of Samaria captive. Hez is said to be in his 4th year when it started, so must have been crowned while Ahaz still ruled (726-7, approx).

712 BC, Ekron revolts or taken by Sargon II, wiki link above. THIS is where Isaiah 53:1, opens. This is what I kept on wondering, 'why there'? Now, thanks to you, I know.

705BC, Senny baby finally becomes king, has some cleaning up to do, and by

701BC turns south to right the wrong of Ekron's revolt, which entailed sending Senny's boy Padi who had ruled Ekron, to Hez. Hence, now Senny faces Hez when 2Kings 19 opens (parallel is Isa 36).

EQUIDISTANCE: Hez is in his 14th year from 715, when Ahaz died.
Hez WAS in his 14th year also, in 712BC, counting from the time he was crowned while Ahaz still lived.
Not counting the year this happens, Hez will have 14 more years afterwards (Isa38).
He was childless at this midpoint, and Manasseh is born 3 years later, counting the year.


Ergo, 70 years prior to Zeph 1's dateline of 642BC, Samex 1 =712BC when Isa 53:1 begins, tying to Sargon II. So maybe Zeph LAYERS Samex 3 on Samex 1 (just as Luke 21 and Eph1:3-14 did upon Matt24 meter)! Notice, for example, how Samex3 is also 126 to perhaps overlay Samex1 exactly?

So meter's saying, '70 years before I write, Ekron revolted against Sargon (712, per Assyrian records), which caused Senny to try to invade Jerusalem in Hez' 14th year'(701, per Assyrian records). Dual entendre here, as the 14th year would be 'Arm' in Isaiah 53:2, EQUIDISTANCE. See 2Kings 18-19, Isa36-38.

Then: '56 years after I write, Temple goes down just as Isaiah metered it, and Ekron will be uprooted too.' For 56 years after 642 BC, is 586BC, which is last clause in Isaiah 53:4. Isa53:1, started on the cause de jure of Senny attacking Jeru over Ekron.

Okay, God better give me billions of dollars, cuz I need to spend them on you and yours. I've been trying since 2008 to figure out WHY Isa53:1 began at 711-712 BC and NEVER would have thought of Ekron!


What's most shocking is it agrees with Matt24-25 meter, in the sense of 1050+7 as a synonymal metaphor.
750 sevens in a 1050. The Matt meter is meant to be a RECONCILING 3150+7 (Christ dies 63 years before the current 1050 he's in, ends, so adds 63 to 'fit' the pre-Church accounting for 1050s.)

PS you can change the topic title so it doesn't end at Samex2. Won't affect the links. So just edit the 1st (title) post in this thread, k? Editing title is same as editing post. This board doesn't fix the titles, they can always be changed.


Last edited by brainout on 31 Oct 2016, 10:11, edited 4 times in total.
massive editing to fix mistakes


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PostPosted: 26 Feb 2017, 01:58 
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I went through Zephaniah and traded out some elisions that I didn't really feel comfortable with. The syllable count didn't change, but there is a spot or two with extra seveing.

Neum is now two syllables, and these are the changes that I made. Let me know what you think of them.

(הָ אֲ דָ מָ ֖ה) Zeph 1:2&3

(מֵ הַ גְּ בָעֹֽ ות) Zeph 1:10

(כַּ גְּ לָלִֽ ים) Zeph 1:17

(יֹ שְׁ בֵ֖י) Zeph 1:18


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Zephaniah Meter alternate elisions.pdf [79.26 KiB]
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PostPosted: 26 Feb 2017, 02:36 
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Okay, see how you got those counts. I'm astonished at the total. Not sure what to make of it. But then, there's more to go. Looks like you'll go well beyond 1050.


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PostPosted: 26 Feb 2017, 02:41 
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Yeah, I need to finish. There are 5 total Samex's, and 5 total occurences of "neum Yehwah", so if it is some kind of anaphora, I'll need to meter the entire book to find out.

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PostPosted: 26 Feb 2017, 21:37 
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Sounds like he's plotting Time from 642 BC to the end of the scheduled Millennium, so 642+40 for Christ's lifetime, plus 57 to get to Mill, then 1050, sum 1789. So if it's not a 642 start date, you'll know. Also, he might omit 7 years for the Trib, since the 50-year gap for the evangelization of the Gentiles (pre-Church schedule) might be inserted. I don't see it counted as Jewish time, which it would not be, so might omit 57 from the 1789 (or so) total.


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PostPosted: 12 Apr 2017, 05:54 
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I edited my OP, so I'm just bumping the thread.

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PostPosted: 12 Apr 2017, 07:22 
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What do the x's mean? I'm stumped on 42 and 28 as datelines.


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PostPosted: 12 Apr 2017, 09:43 
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Sorry, the x's don't mean anything. They were just place holders and are supposed to be in the 'paragraph' column. For some reason, my PC screwed up the document when I saved it. I'll try to fix it in the morning.

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PostPosted: 12 Apr 2017, 18:39 
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Oh, you don't have to fix it. Editing a Word doc in Hebrew is too much of a pistol. You move cursor left to go right, and right to go left, crazy.


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PostPosted: 13 Apr 2017, 05:12 
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Looking at the meter, I think Zeph was written in the last year of Josiah's reign (which would be 609 BC). I have not reconciled the formal datelines yet, but I'm thinking that the 34th syllable is a reference to the fact that Josiah became king 34 years after Manasseh.

Also, if you look at syllable 55, that clause talks about God taking everything from the land. Manasseh reigned for a total of 55 years, and the judgment on Judah was a result of the idolatry initiated by Manasseh. Compare the following verses.

Quote:
Zeph 1:2“I will completely remove all things from the face of the earth...


Quote:
2Kings 21:13 ...and I will wipe Jerusalem as one wipes a dish, wiping it and turning it upside down.


Then, if we treat the 13 syllables of Zeph 1:2a (quoted above) as an informal dateline (John's style), that takes us to 596 BC, which is round the time Nebuchadnezzar started the first deportation of the Jews.

It seems that the 'neum Yehwah' of verse 2b really belongs with verse 3. I didn't expect that, but check this out.

Zeph 1:3
Quote:
נְאֻם־יְהוָֽה
4 syllables
Quote:
אָסֵ֨ף אָדָ֜ם וּבְהֵמָ֗ה
8 syllables
Quote:
אָסֵ֤ף עֹוף־הַשָּׁמַ֙יִם֙ וּדְגֵ֣י הַיָּ֔ם
12 syllables
4+8+12=24

So 24 years post 609 BC is second siege on Jerusalem around 585 BC, resulting in the destruction of the Temple.

or, if we look at it a different way by adding the next clause in vs 3...

Quote:
וְהַמַּכְשֵׁלֹ֖ות אֶת־הָרְשָׁעִ֑ים וְהִכְרַתִּ֣י אֶת־הָאָדָ֗ם מֵעַ֛ל פְּנֵ֥י הָאֲדָמָ֖ה
26 syllables

4+8+12+26=50 Stumbling block removed.

Fifty years from the 585 BC diaspora is 535 BC. By then, the sentence for the 49 missed Sabbatical years would have been served, and the Jews would once again be allowed to enter the Land. I'm really not to sure if that's how I should be reading this, since its really not functioning as a typical informal dateline. Is it some kind of pun???

I still need to keep testing the formal datelines, but I wanted to type this up before I forgot it.

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PostPosted: 13 Apr 2017, 09:43 
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Syntax of verses 2 and 3 both begin with asaph. So how can neum yehwah begin verse 3?

I don't see anything wrong with the datelines you have of 28 and 42, but I can't tie them now. Would be 644 BC, so 42 after Hezikiah died, 28 after Manasseh crowned or ruled alone or can say 28 after Hez died which doesn't fit text. Hez died 686; Manasseh born 698, crowned immediately but age 12 when Hez died. Isaiah 53's timeline is based on that. But how does 42 fit here? And esp., 28? I can't make both fit.

The relevant chapters are 2Kings 21 and 2Chron33. But Daniel also benchmarked Manasseh and if memory serves, the benchmarks are different. If I go by Amon's AGE at accession, then Manasseh might have been captured by the Assyrians when he was only 26, which fits the 28 (698=28=672). But that doesn't fit what I remember from Daniel, tho I could have misparsed the meaning (sylls are okay). So after he repented and God restored him, he had Amon.

Then there's Isaiah 53's parsing of Manasseh, which I thought (perhaps wrongly) meant that Manasseh was captured at age 49. That doesn't fit the 28 at all. Unless the 28 references something else.

Datelines usually start with years from a past event. The second goes forward, but I've not seen that in the OT. All I've seen is years-from, and then somehow the TOTAL at the end fits into years-to, like Moses does with Genesis 1 and Psalm 90, using the TOTALs as prophetic balancing. Also, they seven. You seem to be using a Trinity meter style, which maybe exists but I've not checked it in the OT. Paul used Trinity meter with anaohora, but I've not seen other NT writers do that yet. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

In Timelines (which are not datelines) it's usually years-to, but Genesis 1 is all retrospective timeline. Or so it seems. I can't get a prospective timeline from Genesis 1 individual meters, only from the whole, an equidistant tie with Psalm 90, cuz 1350 years remain to birth of Messiah when Moses finishes each chapter.


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PostPosted: 13 Apr 2017, 14:57 
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Here's your file in pdf, cuz it downloads from docx reversing the Hebrew, really hahaha to look at.


Attachments:
Zephaniah Samex 1 full syll potential.pdf [74.57 KiB]
Downloaded 23 times
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PostPosted: 13 Apr 2017, 15:38 
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It could be a forward dateline if he's tracking to Isaiah 53. But it still would have to 7. Also, if 609 (to warn of imminent invasion), 105 years prior is 714 BC which is Isaiah's dateline for Isaiah 53:1. So now I have to see if the 42 and 28 can somehow tie cuz that 105 is pretty definitive. In which case, maybe the datelines refer to prior prophets, not the king. For a Bible writer might date his book that way: Matthew dated from historical Nehemiah and from Malachai.

So if 609 it's composed to warn Josiah, who goes negative and goes against Pharaoh Neco, 2 Kings 23:29.

Click here for the BW9 copyo of ISBE article on how scholars think to date Zephaniah.

Now, if the early date is used, then Jeremiah's ministry hadn't begun yet, since Jer1:1 says his ministry began during the 13th year of Josiah (whether rulership or age, I'm not sure, haven't parsed the verse). So if Zeph makes no reference to Jeremiah, then the earlier date would be more relevant. If really 609, then something would have to be said about Jeremiah, who'd have begun earlier. If Jeremiah began when Josiah was AGE 13, then he'd have been king since age 8, so king for 5 years at that point. So that year would be 635. If when Josiah was in his 13th year of rule, then (roughly) Josiah would have just turned 21 in age, and it would have been (under Jeremiah), 627. Either of those dates is before Josiah's reforms which ISBE dates to 621.

On the other hand, God liking to use Two Witnesses so much, maybe Zeph prophesies as an independent at the end, the older guy, so that Jeremiah the younger one, gets a better hearing. Maybe Zeph dies soon after he talks, and Jer is to pick up from there, having already the ear of the king, but.. well, I'm guessing.

Jeremiah doesn't reference Zeph, either. The latter's great grandfather was King Hezekiah, so you'd think they'd know each other well, but maybe God didn't want any reference (except maybe in the meter, but I didn't check Jeremiah, Chronicles, or Lamentations for meter).

In any event, Jeremiah would have been alive. He's the son of Hilkiah the high priest (Jer1:1).

But Good news, the Daniel piece (search on 'age 41' in it) counts Manasseh's going bad and getting captured at age 42 (end of Isaiah 53:2, where the map says '133'). But I don't remember how I concluded that M stayed captured until age 49. Will keep researching.


Last edited by brainout on 14 Apr 2017, 00:55, edited 1 time in total.
Added 'Good news' paragraph


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PostPosted: 15 Apr 2017, 02:04 
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Helpful book: Basics of Biblical Hebrew Grammar By Gary D. Pratico Miles V. Van Pelt.
Sadly, it's no longer available on Kindle (tho I thought it was). I have the hardback from years ago. It's out now in 2nd edition, and comes with a CD ROM, https://www.amazon.com/Basics-Biblical- ... 0310270200

Or, you can free-download an EXTRACT (or is it a workbook?) here: https://www.google.com/search?q=basics+ ... hebrew+pdf

Look at Chapter 3, syllabification.


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PostPosted: 15 Apr 2017, 04:14 
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I updated the op with a new version of Zeph samex 1. This one is a bit more interesting. It has a total of 308 syllables, with a 77+77 dateline. Then, by Josiah's name in vs 1, 33 syllables. That's actually what I had been hoping for as Josiah died 33 years after Manasseh died.

Then, the 42 became a 41, which ties more precisely to Manasseh being captured. There's no more 105, but maybe it wasn't really intended.

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The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


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PostPosted: 17 Apr 2017, 02:23 
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I'm still having trouble with the 154. And it seems to me the 127 should be 126 to tag Isaiah, but it's just a hunch.


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