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 Post subject: Keeping Windows XP
PostPosted: 20 Aug 2015, 17:59 
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Far more people reporting how they keep it and why in the comments to this article, worth reading if you're wondering about whether to keep XP. I can add reasons, and maybe later will edit this post to state them. Point is, the arguments that just because MommySoft changes the OS your old MommySoft OS is suddenly bad.. are bupkis.

It's a sales gimmick, to praise the new OS until a newer one comes out by MSFT, who then trashes their old work. All in the name of making you safer. At some point, they cry 'Wolf!' too often.

All you need to do to keep XP (or any later OS) safe, if you're anal:

A) don't accept emails with attachments from folks you don't know.
B) Use a different OS to surf, than for your work. So, Chromebook, Linux stick, whatever. If the underlying files are of a different OS, then the path of attack can't go through. Linux in particular is hard to get past, and of course Chromebook is just a surfer, so isn't touching your working files.
C) Don't click on gimmicky ads or sites promising you fantastic sales, wins, victories, sex, pirated stuff, whatever. Malware lives in such places, looking for someone who is gullible.
D) DITTO your stuff; clone or back it up daily. Backup programs are many, Macrium Reflect Free 6 is easier than all the others I've used, and I have 12 paid licenses of MR Pro 5, as well. It's annoying and hard to learn backing up. DO IT. For Win98, use Retrospect 6 or 6.5, which you can usually get in Amazon (used, but the version is no longer supported) for less than $50.


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 Post subject: Re: Keeping Windows XP
PostPosted: 18 Sep 2015, 01:26 
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Governments and businesses (most importantly debit terminals) still use Windows XP. As such Microsoft does still support it and rolls out updates. Nowhere does Microsoft state they've stopped supporting governments and businesses that require it. On their notice page they emphasize USERS:
Quote:
Security updates patch vulnerabilities that may be exploited by malware and help keep users and their data safer.

Source: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/WindowsForBusiness/end-of-xp-support

USERS don't get support anymore. As such it is possible to edit the registry and receive the XP updates; Microsoft is aware of this and apparently is telling end users to stop:
http://www.tripwire.com/state-of-security/latest-security-news/microsoft-issues-warning-about-windows-xp-support-hack/

At any rate, XP isn't a good operating system in my opinion; and XP 64-bit is very unstable with drivers-- meaning you're stuck with the x86 version and 4 GB RAM as a result.

I keep XP on only one of my computers 'just in case' for old software.


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 Post subject: Re: Keeping Windows XP
PostPosted: 18 Sep 2015, 17:18 
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hupostasis wrote:
At any rate, XP isn't a good operating system in my opinion; and XP 64-bit is very unstable with drivers-- meaning you're stuck with the x86 version and 4 GB RAM as a result.

I keep XP on only one of my computers 'just in case' for old software.


What makes you think 32-bit XP is not good? The only flaw I find in it, other than the IE problem (so I won't use IE), is that it can't write to DVDs. Its search and almost all other functions are superior to Win7, so far as I've found. What do you think later Windows offers, which is superior to XP? Thank you for your time, in reply!


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 Post subject: Re: Keeping Windows XP
PostPosted: 19 Sep 2015, 03:01 
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brainout wrote:
What makes you think 32-bit XP is not good? The only flaw I find in it, other than the IE problem (so I won't use IE), is that it can't write to DVDs. Its search and almost all other functions are superior to Win7, so far as I've found. What do you think later Windows offers, which is superior to XP? Thank you for your time, in reply!

#1 Windows XP cannot run MS-DOS applications properly
#2 Windows XP cannot run newer windows applications that require newer versions of direct x or redistributables
#3 Windows XP (x86) always makes you stuck with 4 GB of RAM
#4 Windows XP lacks TRIM so it can't handle SSDs properly
#5 Windows XP supports a rather limited set of hardware
#6 Windows XP needs to be 'slip streamed' (drivers injected into the OS installer) in order to operate on newer motherboards making it very irritating to install
#7 Windows XP comes with a 'clown theme'

To write DVDs the best program is ImgBurn
http://imgburn.com/index.php?act=download

Windows XP search functions are far more limited than Windows 7 because you can click start and type instantly what you want and hit 'enter'. For example if I type 'note' the first thing will be notepad and hitting enter will launch it right away.
Whereas in XP you either have to painstakingly go through the start menu or create a desktop or taskbar shortcut.

XP is not old enough and not new enough.


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 Post subject: Re: Keeping Windows XP
PostPosted: 19 Sep 2015, 03:52 
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Okay, well since I run my DOS programs without helpers in XP, I couldn't disagree with you more on #1. I use 1980's Lotus 1-2-3 version 2.01 for DOS natively in XP Pro 32-bit, almost daily, for years; in fact, it won't work in Win98. Can't run it fullscreen in Windows 7; it won't operate at all in Win8-10 without DOSbox. I know, because I had to install DOSbox in Win8 and Win10, to run Lotus 1-2-3 at all.

All my other DOS programs run just fine in XP except I can't run my TSRs (like Sidekick) in any version of Windows, since I run TSRs in conjunction with regular DOS programs. Now maybe there's a way to configure EMS or EXT memory so I can, but I"ve not tried to learn that yet: for I only run TSRs in EXT or EMS memory.

Yes, I use ImgBurn in XP. :vikinggirl:

Re #3, any 32-bit program is stuck with 3.x GB of RAM, not merely XP. :bustedcop:

Re #4-6, I refuse to use SSDs, so don't care, since they weren't invented when XP came out; as for newer machines, I just clean installed an old but unused retail 32-bit XP Pro, bare metal to a brand new drive, inserted into a 2012 Dell Latitude 6530 i5 laptop and there were no hitches, no need for any drivers. I did have to download Net framework 3.5 for the sake of my Intel HD graphics, but that's all. :cool:

I don't want anything later than third-gen i5 or i7, because later-gen CPUs are soldered. I want mine insertable and removable and paste-able. So later hardware is not desirable. :chemfail:

Re #7, not a clown theme but classic or any other theme you want to create, you can; for example, you can use Plus! from Windows 98 or 95, or use the 'classic' theme option and create your own in (right-click on desktop) Properties, and in Start Menu Right-click Properties. 100% Customizable Start Menu, also. Most of that is taken away in Windows 7, more taken away in Win8, and totally removed in Win10.

Differ with you also, on the claim about XP search being more limited. Stuff I cannot find on a drive using Win7, I find easily in XP. Granted, with XP you first have to ENTER its search program, and SPECIFY what you want to search, but you find more things faster and better. So much so, I won't use Windows 7 et seq. to search anymore. In fact, I bought ZtreeWin at the suggestion of one of the members here, and it can find EVERYTHING including any text (it's like XtreeGold for DOS, which I believe you know, but this is the Windows version, and it works in Win8 and Win10 even on 32-bit in 64-bit Win10 with ZtreeWin solely installed on a STICK). :cheese:

And I've never HAD to create a desktop shortcut using the Start Menu. In fact, most installer programs offer to create both a Start Menu program item AND a desktop shortcut FOR you. Or, you just go to the executable and create it, or yeah you can easily go to Start Menu and right-click to create it. AND you can do TWO toolbars, one on top and one on bottom of the screen, with as many icons as you like AND alphabetize them. Win7 only lets you do one 'side'. :Egyptdance:

I got Direct X 9, and Windows 10 only supports Direct X 10, which I know because I have 64-bit Win 10. Turns out Direct X 12 really can't run yet, in Win10.


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 Post subject: Re: Keeping Windows XP
PostPosted: 19 Sep 2015, 04:57 
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brainout wrote:
Okay, well since I run my DOS programs without helpers in XP, I couldn't disagree with you more on #1. I use 1980's Lotus 1-2-3 version 2.01 for DOS natively in XP Pro 32-bit, almost daily, for years; in fact, it won't work in Win98. Can't run it fullscreen in Windows 7; it won't operate at all in Win8-10 without DOSbox. I know, because I had to install DOSbox in Win8 and Win10, to run Lotus 1-2-3 at all.


The XP DOS emulator doesn't respond to hardware: so if you're running a DOS program with sound you're out of luck. If Lotus 2.01 doesn't work in 98 then you probably have to specify himem.sys or emm386. Windows 98SE works with all DOS programs; whether if it's restart in MS-DOS mode, or the DOS virtual machines. One or the other will work, eventually.

Of course there are rare exceptions... but usually relegated to things made for 8088 PCs. Lotus 2.01 should work.

brainout wrote:
All my other DOS programs run just fine in XP except I can't run my TSRs (like Sidekick) in any version of Windows, since I run TSRs in conjunction with regular DOS programs. Now maybe there's a way to configure EMS or EXT memory so I can, but I"ve not tried to learn that yet: for I only run TSRs in EXT or EMS memory.

The XP "DOS" is actually an emulator, so it doesn't behave like the virtual machines in 98.

brainout wrote:
Re #3, any 32-bit program is stuck with 3.x GB of RAM, not merely XP.

Not necessarily... if you have a 32-bit program that utilizes multiple programs and processes, each *process* in that program can have 4 GB of RAM allocated to it. So collectively, you could have a 32-bit program using far beyond just 4 GB.
Another faculty is that the executable can be 32-bit, but other elements can actually be 64-bit (such is the case with Microsoft Visual Studio).

Of course I actually use Windows 7 x86 on my laptops since they're so old.

brainout wrote:
Re #4-6, I refuse to use SSDs, so don't care, since they weren't invented when XP came out; as for newer machines, I just clean installed an old but unused retail 32-bit XP Pro, bare metal to a brand new drive, inserted into a 2012 Dell Latitude 6530 i5 laptop and there were no hitches, no need for any drivers. I did have to download Net framework 3.5 for the sake of my Intel HD graphics, but that's all.

SSDs are a lot better than standard SATA platter drives in my opinion. Especially useful for programs with a lot of files (like BibleWorks) so they open up instantly.

brainout wrote:
I don't want anything later than third-gen i5 or i7, because later-gen CPUs are soldered. I want mine insertable and removable and paste-able. So later hardware is not desirable.

Only *some* of the CPUs are soldered directly with budget low-power machines. The high-end laptops which aren't purposed as ultraportable will have socketed CPUs regardless of generation. For example, the T540p with the 4th generation processors are removable, I know since I've opened one up:
http://shop.lenovo.com/ca/en/laptops/th ... ies/t540p/

With that said, while modern laptops are faster everything else has devolved. Horrible keyboards, low resolution displays and a lot of other missing features.


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 Post subject: Re: Keeping Windows XP
PostPosted: 19 Sep 2015, 05:09 
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Well, all I can tell you is that the sound works just fine with my DOS programs in XP. Maybe some old games you play won't work, I don't do games so can't speak to that. Nor do I use Visual Studio.

SSDs wear out faster, and there are other disadvantages which to me overweigh speed. So if you like them, I'm happy for you. As for me, I don't want them, for the same reason I won't buy a 'new' car, since they all have unibody construction, now, and a bunch of other things I don't want.

As for soldering, perhaps some of the legacy machines still being made don't have soldered CPUs, as I imagine businesses like mine won't want them (we like having machines we can easily repair). But the plan is to solder CPUs to the motherboards for the future, that's the info I read from Intel (not sure where). So, not interested in that. But thank you for the heads-up that some CPUs won't be soldered.


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 Post subject: Re: Keeping Windows XP
PostPosted: 19 Sep 2015, 18:44 
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brainout wrote:
Well, all I can tell you is that the sound works just fine with my DOS programs in XP. Maybe some old games you play won't work, I don't do games so can't speak to that. Nor do I use Visual Studio.

SSDs wear out faster, and there are other disadvantages which to me overweigh speed. So if you like them, I'm happy for you. As for me, I don't want them, for the same reason I won't buy a 'new' car, since they all have unibody construction, now, and a bunch of other things I don't want.

As for soldering, perhaps some of the legacy machines still being made don't have soldered CPUs, as I imagine businesses like mine won't want them (we like having machines we can easily repair). But the plan is to solder CPUs to the motherboards for the future, that's the info I read from Intel (not sure where). So, not interested in that. But thank you for the heads-up that some CPUs won't be soldered.


It's not exactly 'clear' how quickly SSDs will wear out. I've seen one that had its write cycles expired, but it wasn't mine and was made when the technology first came out. All of my SSDs are still operating fine (it's been about four years now).

If Intel moved exclusively to BGA for all of their chips simultaneously, they would have announced it. If they're planning to move exclusively to BGA in the future, that will be a bit yet, and there'll be an announcement when the switch-over occurs. AMD isn't planning on using BGA for their chips, and the fact there'll be a lot of outcry means there will be alternatives.

The problem with BGA isn't that you can't easily service the chips, but because the solder balls underneath can become weak from heat since solder no longer contains lead. Anyone in electrical engineering will point this out, and it looks like even Wikipedia talks about it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_grid ... advantages

I imagine there will be a lot of board failures if high-end CPUs switch to BGA; it's already a common problem with GPUs.


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 Post subject: Re: Keeping Windows XP
PostPosted: 19 Sep 2015, 19:13 
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Thank you, hupostasis! I wish there was a phpBB thingy for version 3.1.6 which allowed upvoting posts (here=yours), but alas I see none in the extensions, thus far. Thank you again!


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 Post subject: Re: Keeping Windows XP
PostPosted: 29 Sep 2015, 01:53 
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I still have a Windows XP machine. The graphics chip driver isn't compatible with newer versions of Windows, so upgrading isn't an option unless I want to use the basic Windows graphics driver. Windows XP still works fine for this machine, does everything I need it to, and I'm not worried about infections. It's never been infected, and if it was I could wipe the drive, and restore from my backup image. There is no valuable data on that computer, so there is nothing for malware to take hostage, and I never use it to login into accounts so there is nothing a keylogger will intercept other than what weird things I Google. The only thing it could do is infect my other computers, which is why if I transfer files from that machine I scan them first, and then scan them again on the machine they are transfered to. Not that scanning them is any guarantee, but better than nothing.

On the subject of SSDs I would point out that SSD is a broad term for any solid state storage device, not just Nand-flash harddrive replacements. For example, back in the XP era Gigabyte sold a ram-based SSD (Gigabyte i-Ram), of course it was much smaller capacity wise than typical SSDs now adays, and not as fast, but still a pretty cool idea. Other companies have attempted the same thing, but it never catches on, because: they are always too expensive, they typically use outdated ram, and because the storage is volatile you need a battery and a backup storage card. Software generated ram SSDs, however have caught on to a certain degree, but mostly in the GNU/Linux world (eg: Puppy Linux, Porteus, etc).

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 Post subject: Re: Keeping Windows XP
PostPosted: 29 Sep 2015, 03:31 
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capricious wrote:
I still have a Windows XP machine. The graphics chip driver isn't compatible with newer versions of Windows, so upgrading isn't an option unless I want to use the basic Windows graphics driver. Windows XP still works fine for this machine, does everything I need it to, and I'm not worried about infections. It's never been infected, and if it was I could wipe the drive, and restore from my backup image. There is no valuable data on that computer, so there is nothing for malware to take hostage, and I never use it to login into accounts so there is nothing a keylogger will intercept other than what weird things I Google. The only thing it could do is infect my other computers, which is why if I transfer files from that machine I scan them first, and then scan them again on the machine they are transfered to. Not that scanning them is any guarantee, but better than nothing.

On the subject of SSDs I would point out that SSD is a broad term for any solid state storage device, not just Nand-flash harddrive replacements. For example, back in the XP era Gigabyte sold a ram-based SSD (Gigabyte i-Ram), of course it was much smaller capacity wise than typical SSDs now adays, and not as fast, but still a pretty cool idea. Other companies have attempted the same thing, but it never catches on, because: they are always too expensive, they typically use outdated ram, and because the storage is volatile you need a battery and a backup storage card. Software generated ram SSDs, however have caught on to a certain degree, but mostly in the GNU/Linux world (eg: Puppy Linux, Porteus, etc).


If it's a desktop you can pop in a Windows 7 capable graphics card, if it's a laptop, it would have to be older than Dothan to be incompatible with Windows 7-- my Dothan T43 runs Windows 7 nicely (and in that case probably would fare better with W2K or 98SE if supported).

Well in context I mentioned SATA SSDs; you also have SAS SSDs which if you can afford are a far better alternative. SSD DIMMs are still manufactured by major OEMs, i.e. in the system x:
https://youtu.be/0kfsKQr2aag?t=202
(it is nand flash so not required on a backup battery and is essentially a faster-than-SAS SSD). Of course most people who buy those will expand them to the full 12 TB of RAM... too costly for my blood.


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 Post subject: Re: Keeping Windows XP
PostPosted: 29 Sep 2015, 04:53 
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Yes it's a laptop. An old Dell one. The next graphics processor model up, has compatible drivers, but my model was the cut-off. Doesn't matter though, it's just a spare machine. I bought it used, maxed out the ram at 2GiB (it came with 256MiB), and got it a large battery. I figured the battery would come in handy during power outtages, as I usually watch movies when the power is out.

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 Post subject: Re: Keeping Windows XP
PostPosted: 18 Sep 2016, 22:44 
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XP continues as a sound platform for many. Commentators such as Ed Bott would question the sanity of those still using it whilst on his personal quest to get everyone to convert to Windows 10 on ZDNet which is corrupt through to its core.

Some have taken XP offline which is perhaps being overly cautious. In reality though it is common sense when it comes to working with XP and keeping it Online. Here are the three essential

1) Decent Antivirus software and Firewall.

2) Don't browse the web using Internet Explorer 8. Use Firefox (Chrome no longer supports XP).

3) Responsible Browsing

It is also worth mentioning that XP is probably more secure now than its ever been as it is no longer the main focus of malware writers.


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 Post subject: Re: Keeping Windows XP
PostPosted: 18 Sep 2016, 23:17 
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Great points! Later machines handle XP just fine. What latest-model machines would you install XP on, 5735guy?


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 Post subject: Re: Keeping Windows XP
PostPosted: 19 Sep 2016, 00:55 
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5735guy wrote:
XP continues as a sound platform for many. Commentators such as Ed Bott would question the sanity of those still using it whilst on his personal quest to get everyone to convert to Windows 10 on ZDNet which is corrupt through to its core.

Some have taken XP offline which is perhaps being overly cautious. In reality though it is common sense when it comes to working with XP and keeping it Online. Here are the three essential

1) Decent Antivirus software and Firewall.

2) Don't browse the web using Internet Explorer 8. Use Firefox (Chrome no longer supports XP).

3) Responsible Browsing

It is also worth mentioning that XP is probably more secure now than its ever been as it is no longer the main focus of malware writers.


The biggest problem for XP is not the potential security risks (which behind a proper firewall are moot), it's the fact that developer support by Microsoft is dropped. So you know, if something needs a redistributable that only works on 7+, you won't be able to run the software. There are workarounds, but they can only go so far. Same reason why Windows 98SE can't run everything today.

I just run an XP VM on my main computer so any XP-specific software I have remains there.


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 Post subject: Re: Keeping Windows XP
PostPosted: 04 Dec 2016, 11:40 
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hupostasis wrote:
brainout wrote:
What makes you think 32-bit XP is not good? The only flaw I find in it, other than the IE problem (so I won't use IE), is that it can't write to DVDs. Its search and almost all other functions are superior to Win7, so far as I've found. What do you think later Windows offers, which is superior to XP? Thank you for your time, in reply!

#1 Windows XP cannot run MS-DOS applications properly
#2 Windows XP cannot run newer windows applications that require newer versions of direct x or redistributables
#3 Windows XP (x86) always makes you stuck with 4 GB of RAM
#4 Windows XP lacks TRIM so it can't handle SSDs properly
#5 Windows XP supports a rather limited set of hardware
#6 Windows XP needs to be 'slip streamed' (drivers injected into the OS installer) in order to operate on newer motherboards making it very irritating to install
#7 Windows XP comes with a 'clown theme'

To write DVDs the best program is ImgBurn
http://imgburn.com/index.php?act=download

Windows XP search functions are far more limited than Windows 7 because you can click start and type instantly what you want and hit 'enter'. For example if I type 'note' the first thing will be notepad and hitting enter will launch it right away.
Whereas in XP you either have to painstakingly go through the start menu or create a desktop or taskbar shortcut.

XP is not old enough and not new enough.

I believe you are missing the point to a certain extent. Sure some of the points you make are valid however their are others which make a valid argument for continuing use of XP.

In your second point relating to old software. There are consumers that have invested considerable amounts in to purchasing older software and it is beyond their budget to upgrade. Also in some instances it is not possible to upgrade straight from lets say v.4 of an app to v.10 so the purchase needs to made in its entirety meaning the consumer is paying more than once for the same software to do the same job.

In your fourth point relating to TRIM. XP is pre SSD era therefore cannot be expected to fully support a more recent architecture.Besides with or without TRIM enabled XP flies as it does with a 7200rpm HDD.

In your fifth point relating to Hardware. Much the same as your second point the Hardware that runs just fine on XP may not have drivers readily available for running it on Windows 7 upwards.

In your sixth point regarding slipstreaming. This is most likely to occur when XP is installed on newer hardware where the 'die hard' XP user will want to install it on modern mother boards.

In you seventh point regarding the theme. It has no bearing on the performance of the operating system unlike the case with AERO in Windows Vista and Windows 7.


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 Post subject: Re: Keeping Windows XP
PostPosted: 05 Dec 2016, 08:46 
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5735guy wrote:
I believe you are missing the point to a certain extent. Sure some of the points you make are valid however their are others which make a valid argument for continuing use of XP.

In your second point relating to old software. There are consumers that have invested considerable amounts in to purchasing older software and it is beyond their budget to upgrade. Also in some instances it is not possible to upgrade straight from lets say v.4 of an app to v.10 so the purchase needs to made in its entirety meaning the consumer is paying more than once for the same software to do the same job.

In your fourth point relating to TRIM. XP is pre SSD era therefore cannot be expected to fully support a more recent architecture.Besides with or without TRIM enabled XP flies as it does with a 7200rpm HDD.

In your fifth point relating to Hardware. Much the same as your second point the Hardware that runs just fine on XP may not have drivers readily available for running it on Windows 7 upwards.

In your sixth point regarding slipstreaming. This is most likely to occur when XP is installed on newer hardware where the 'die hard' XP user will want to install it on modern mother boards.

In you seventh point regarding the theme. It has no bearing on the performance of the operating system unlike the case with AERO in Windows Vista and Windows 7.

All of that can be solved if people just virtualize XP and run whatever they need in an isolated VM. That also eradicates the issue of slip streaming and any security concerns can be eradicated.

What I was getting at is that nobody should use it as a primary OS since it can't even take advantage of modern hardware well (4 GB of RAM). But running as an x86 VM, no problem.

Microsoft killed Aero on 8 and 10 (and I actually like the look of Vista's theme better than Windows 7).

The original hardware (i.e. Pentium 4) is starting to fail due to requiring a component refresh. If the people who haven't figured out how to migrate XP off of the original hardware are still running it, they most likely lack the soldering equipment to fix said hardware.


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