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PostPosted: 22 Nov 2015, 08:03 
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Now these are likely key points to the puzzle! Reddened. When you get to that section in Rev you'll hear Thieme talk about it, though he brings up the point sooner. There and earlier, he speculates that what we are calling aborted kings (he calls 'loser believers') will be "sitting on the sidelines". Funny, I never made the connection to Pisgah until you posted it here. Yeah. That makes sense.

We need more proof, but this parallel sounds like one of our smoking guns?


Anonynomenon wrote:
Quote:
Deut 3:23“I also pleaded with the LORD at that time, saying, 24‘O Lord GOD, You have begun to show Your servant Your greatness and Your strong hand; for what god is there in heaven or on earth who can do such works and mighty acts as Yours? 25‘Let me, I pray, cross over and see the fair land that is beyond the Jordan, that good hill country and Lebanon.’ 26“But the LORD was angry with me on your account, and would not listen to me; and the LORD said to me, ‘Enough! Speak to Me no more of this matter. 27‘Go up to the top of Pisgah and lift up your eyes to the west and north and south and east, and see it with your eyes, for you shall not cross over this Jordan.


Perhaps an analogy can be drawn between Pisgah and outer darkness. Moses was not allowed to enter the Land because he disobeyed God by striking the stone. When Moses pleaded with God, God told Moses to look at the Land from the mountain. Moses desired to enter the Land, but accepted God's judgement. Perhaps contentment by justice?

Also what about Rev 21:24?
Quote:
Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory


New Jerusalem is for the Bride (so that must include ALL of Church), and it looks like it will provide light for the earth. But what does it mean when it says, "The kings of earth do bring their glory"????
Does this mean earthly kings will be able to visit New Jerusalem? If so, then aborted kings would have to watch from afar, wondering what its like. Same idea for the Wedding Feast; some are let in, some wish they could get in. And again, same for hell; some are saved, but nonbelievers wish they were in heaven (if only they would just believe).

I also noticed that Rev 21:24 has added text, which is interesting.


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PostPosted: 22 Nov 2015, 22:51 
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Ok. Pay close attention to these verses:
Quote:
Rev 21:8“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”


Key word, "unbelieving", they go to Lake of Fire.

Quote:
Rev 22:14Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.


Notice that you must was your robes (soul) to enter New Jerusalem and have access to the Tree of Life.

Also notice that verse 15 does not say the sorcerers, etc are "unbelieving", nor does it say they are in Lake of Fire. It simply says they are OUTSIDE

Quote:
Rev 22:19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.


So, if your soul isn't washed in Christ (Mind of Christ), you don't get Fruit of Life and you don't enter New Jerusalem.

What do you guys think? Is this smoking gun material?

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PostPosted: 22 Nov 2015, 23:15 
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Could be. How far have you gotten in the Rev tapes? What chapter and verse?


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PostPosted: 22 Nov 2015, 23:35 
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Just starting chapter 2:1. Been focusing on James 4 to build my tolerance with patients at work.

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PostPosted: 22 Nov 2015, 23:50 
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Okay, well let's give this topic a rest until you've heard Thieme cover those points, as he's just getting into them, with 2:1.


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2015, 13:42 
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Couldn't sleep, so came back here, rethinking the whole thread. Keying off now your post below, highlighted words, and the small text is cross-ref or comment.

NASB Revelation 22v12ff wrote:
12 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me =Isa53:12, to render to every man according to what he has done.
13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."
14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.
15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying. =those who didn't wash in the Word are equivalent to dogs, etc., which means 1John1:9 NOT used, MD avoided, etc.
16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."
17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost. = plays to Isaiah 55:8-9, which is a post-salv passage.
18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book;
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.
20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.


Now, 'wash' with v.16 'churches' shows a second, post-salv meaning: JSC, 1 Cor 3 and Rev 4:1, rewards for growing up, not for being saved. For everyone has the right ROBES, but not all are clean (washed by the Word). Then you have v.17, the availability of it (which of course Frank Herbert mangled in order to show the evil of religion in his Dune sextilogy). Verses 18-19 clearly apply to believers. Verse 20's mistranslated 'quickly' means 'next, and suddenly, without prior warning' so applies to Church.

So there's a clear parallel with Outside which is not the Lake of Fire. No mention of darkness. But I've not gone through my notes or any commentaries. It's my procedure to look at the text as if never reading it, and run with an idea, see how well it works. Then go back and correct. Point is, the highlights sorta affirm what you and hupostasis said above, which is repasted below.
Anonynomenon wrote:
Ok. Pay close attention to these verses:
Quote:
Rev 21:8“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”


Key word, "unbelieving", they go to Lake of Fire.

Quote:
Rev 22:14Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.


Notice that you must was your robes (soul) to enter New Jerusalem and have access to the Tree of Life.

Also notice that verse 15 does not say the sorcerers, etc are "unbelieving", nor does it say they are in Lake of Fire. It simply says they are OUTSIDE

Quote:
Rev 22:19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.


So, if your soul isn't washed in Christ (Mind of Christ), you don't get Fruit of Life and you don't enter New Jerusalem.

What do you guys think? Is this smoking gun material?


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2015, 16:26 
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@Brainout

Yeah, I'm still trying to hear Thieme out, but progress is slow. I'm really torn between whether or not access to New Jerusalem and Tree of Life is meritorious or non-meritorious.

It all depends on what it means to "overcome" as repeated in the 7 letters. If each letter uses it in the same context, then to "overcome" is Juridical Salvation, not soul salvation.

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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2015, 18:07 
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Yeah, that's why your SEQUENTIAL listening will be important. The thread won't vanish. Rev 2-3 set the pattern, and nikaw is the keyword starting there. So just hang on.

I'm not trying to hurry the thread. Just needed to do something when I woke up too early.
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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2015, 18:58 
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Understood. I just tend to fixate on things that I can't figure out. That's why I opened the music thread, to transfer my focus until I'm ready to come back here. Now I'm fixated on fundamental music theory. Went as far as inventing my own equidistant scale and removing the frets from my guitar.

Feel free to disregard my obsessive ramblings. :thumbup:

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PostPosted: 07 Jun 2016, 06:52 
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Earlier in this thread, I mentioned a parallel between the Outer Darkness and Mount Pisgah, were Moses had to view the Land from afar. Just recently, I revisited some questions that I had about Hebrews 6:

Quote:
1Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. 3And this we will do, if God permits. 4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away,it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.



I always thought Hebrews 6:5 (especially the highlighted portion) was for non-believers only, specifically because I did not previously know that the Outer Darkness was a place for failed believers only. But now with this new knowledge, the entire NT is starting to make so much more sense in a way that I did not expect.

Moses was prohibited from entering the Land SPECIFICALLY because he struck the rock rather than speaking to it (as described in Deut 32:51-52). By striking the rock twice, Moses symbolically crucified Christ a second time (Heb 6:6), therefore Moses was not allowed into the Land that would become the Kingdom of Israel.

Now, Moses was present at the Transfiguration of Christ, so I don't think Moses' prohibition from entering the Land was anything more than a symbol for the spiritual life (in other words, I think Moses will be in the Millennial Kingdom) , but this some serious stuff.

From what I gather from Hebrews 6, any believer who cracks the Maturity Barrier, and then falls way from the Word will cause IRREPARIABLE DAMAGE to his/her relationship with God, and therefore a permanent loss of eternal reward WITH NO SECOND CHANCE.

So maybe the story of the Prodigal son only applies to immature believers (who have not cracked the Maturity Barrier) who fall away and come back.

If someone has a different understanding of this, please share it, because this is all still kind of shocking to me.

BTW, this isn't all that I've found, there is much more, which I hope to post tomorrow.

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PostPosted: 07 Jun 2016, 18:57 
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Yeah, good point on the parallel to 2nd Meribah. I didn't think about that.

Impossible to renew, though, could mean that nothing WE do can help. Not sure it's a consignment to outer darkness before death. Serious enough, though, what with how the last three stages of reversionism go.

When Thieme was teaching that, I seem to recall him saying that 'impossible' meant 'so long as they don't use 1John1:9', which of course would be true. I'd have to look it up in my notes.


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PostPosted: 07 Jun 2016, 23:20 
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brainout wrote:

Impossible to renew, though, could mean that nothing WE do can help. Not sure it's a consignment to outer darkness before death. Serious enough, though, what with how the last three stages of reversionism go.



Yeah, that's what I'm trying to figure out too. If we parallel the Lake of Fire with the Outer Darkness, maybe it will clear it up. People will remain in the Lake of Fire because the CHOOSE not to believe, so maybe reversionistic believer are impossible to renew because he REFUSE to use 1 John 1:9.

There is a world of (in my opinion) between a Prodigal son (apostate infant) and a matured believer who went Cosmic.

An immature believer doesn't realize what he has to lose by entering the Cosmic system. He is like an immature know-it-all who wants his inheritance now so he can take off and party.

A mature believer has tasted the things to come and turns it down for the Cosmic system.


Think about the Israelites who rejected Caleb and Joshua's minority report. Out of fear, they wanted to go back to the slavery in Egypt. Then the next day, they decided to fight the giants in the Land, and were slaughtered. They made the same mistake Moses made at Meribah II, and were therefore prohibited from taking the Land.

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PostPosted: 08 Jun 2016, 05:53 
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I've been reviewing some verses with the Outer Darkness in mind, and I think I may have found something.

Quote:
Mark 9:43“If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, 44[where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.] 45“If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell, 46[where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.] 47“If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, 48where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.

49“For everyone will be salted with fire. 50“Salt is good; but if the salt becomes unsalty, with what will you make it salty again? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another.”



The yellow highlighted text seems to be added, I'm not sure about the red text. Then:

Quote:
Matt 10: 28“Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. 29“Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. 30“But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31“So do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows.

32“Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. 33“But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.



I can't tell if Mark 9 and Matt 10 are addressed to believers or non-believers. The word for hell here is γεέννῃ.

I'm beginning to wonder if Gehenna is the Outer Darkness.

I know for a fact that James 3 is addressed to BELIEVERS ONLY.

Quote:
James 3: 6 See how great a forest is set aflame by such a small fire! 6And the tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of our life, and is set on fire by hell (γεέννης).



Im pretty sure Matt 5 is addressed to believers too.

Quote:
Matt 5:26“Truly I say to you, you will not come out of there until you have paid up the last cent.

27“You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY’; 28but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29“If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell(γέενναν). 30“If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell(γέενναν).


This time Jesus talks about serving a temporary prison sentence just before talking about Gehenna. Maybe Jesus is talking about human legal procedings in vers 26, but to transition from that to Gehenna is odd to say the least.

What if the Valley of Gehenna (just outside of Jerusalem) is the Outer Darkness????? So maybe the fire of John 15:6 is very literal....Like 1,050 years literal.



I don't know. My mind is overloaded, right now. I have a lot of thinking to do.

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PostPosted: 08 Jun 2016, 06:47 
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Okay, well the yellow highlighted stuff in Mark 9 is an error called dittography, where you copy a phrase really in Bible, but in the wrong place. Question is, which of the three places is the right one, and the scholars felt that the last one was logically right.

As for the rest of what you're conjecturing, the only thing for sure is that the lapsed Christian is much farther away from Christ. I don't see how you can stretch it to claim the term Gehenna, since that is a metaphor of hell (for unbelievers), nor how you can stretch it to claim a specific period of time.

Point is, if unbelievers are separated from God then so too lapsed believers. 'Lapsed' means those who matured some then cratered, and those who never got with the spiritual life. LOW, bottom-of-totem-pole social standing, so they see Him seldom, have a childish understanding.. maybe forever.

To me, that's worse than hell. For one will have in heaven, Divine Norms and Standards.


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PostPosted: 08 Jun 2016, 17:30 
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If you look at Matt 5, it looks like Jesus is addressing believers. He's teaching them spiritual dynamics, not the gospel. So I don't see how Gehenna can be in reference to non-believers.

Quote:
13“You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.

14“You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden; 15nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16“Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.



If you skip down to verse 22, He's acting like Gehenna is a prison sentence. So I figured since apostates have no part in the kingdom, it would last the entire Millennial age.

Quote:
but I -- I say to you, that every one who is angry at his brother without cause, shall be in danger of the judgment, and whoever may say to his brother, Empty fellow! shall be in danger of the sanhedrim, and whoever may say, Rebel! shall be in danger of the gehenna of the fire.

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PostPosted: 09 Jun 2016, 02:54 
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Okay, well in v.22, every believer in history has committed those sins at least once. So it cannot be literal, nor be hell, but some kind of comparative metaphor. And we are all guilty so would go 'there'.

So maybe He means something other than what you're claiming.


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PostPosted: 09 Jun 2016, 07:20 
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Well, I don't think Jesus is talking about single occurrences of mental attitude sins. I think He means lust complexes, guilt complexes, and hate complexes. Chain mental attitude sinning tends to occupy the time of the carnal believer and becomes an obsession. If stuck in a sin complex, there is no spiritual growth. Maybe that's where Paul got Ephesians 5:3-14.

Quote:
3But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; 4and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.


And I'm not sure that Gehenna has any connection to hell at all either. Jeremiah 7:31 says its where the idolaters of Judah sacrificed their children as a burnt offering. So maybe Gehenna is the burning of useless works or a burning of wicked believers, since the innocent were burned there?

Quote:
31“They have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, and it did not come into My mind.


So now, I don't see a time period or a physical place (though I'm not ruling that out yet), but the metaphorical use of the Gehenna fire offerings to show how apostates store up wrath for themselves at the Judgment Seat (Romans 2:5).

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PostPosted: 09 Jun 2016, 10:28 
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Okay, but wouldn't the greater sin be not using 1John1:9 and growing in Christ? The other sins are excuses we use to not do those two things, and self-righteousness would be the one sin which makes one think he's 'in' with God, 1John1:8, 10.

I guess I find the stress on individual sins to be red herrings. The resulting carnality means NOT GROWING. The sins were paid for, but the NOT GROWING remains. Christ paid for it too, as the opportunity cost of all creation (think of all the unbelievers as NEVER GROWING for that paradigm).. but you can't live close to God in eternity without enough MD in your head, it would be excruciating.


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PostPosted: 09 Jun 2016, 15:57 
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That's what I mean though. Christ is not stressing spurts of sin, but chain sin complexes that cause the believer to fall out of fellowship for extended periods of time.

If you have a selfrighteous and hate complex, then you might use 1 John 1:9 every now and then (when religious morality is violated), but if you're not taking in and applying doctrine, you'll probably go right back into your favorite sins and stay there for a long time...so long as the selfrighteous believer thinks he is being moral....classic moral degeneration.

Basically these sin complexes are designed to minimize the use of 1 John 1:9. Thieme always said mental attitude sins are the worst kind. Here is proof.

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PostPosted: 10 Jun 2016, 11:59 
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But still the problem is not using 1John1:9 and taking in DOCTRINE. Doesn't matter WHY one does that. DOCTRINE is the only way to grow out of any sin or sin complex.

See, the emphasis is backwards. GETTING DOCTRINE, not how and what kind of sin you sin. 2Pet3:18, not haranguing about the sins themselves, and Hebrews 11:1-6, which you'll recall is in the context of Hebrews 6, how they don't grow (not how bad their self-righteousness is).


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2016, 03:29 
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I don't disagree with what you're saying. However, just from reading Matt 5 (whole chapter) and related passages, it seems that both 1John 1:9 and sin complexes are being emphasized. Why both? Because the real emphasis is not sin or fellowship alone, but growth.

Quote:
Matt 5:13“You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.

14“You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden; 15nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16“Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.


The highlighted portion confirms that this is addressed to believers (in this case Judea as client nation). The bolded portion seems to depict fellowship (1John 1:9). Shining the Light is being in fellowship and living in doctrine. To hide the Light is being out of fellowship.

The rest of the passage is talking about mental attitudes that will not only break fellowship, but cause accelerated degeneration of the soul if a sin complex is allowed to develop. Not all sins are the same. Some lead to death quicker than others (1 John 5:16-17).


Quote:
Matt 5:23“Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering.


This portion again emphasized 1John 1:9 to break the complex.

1John 3:15, Eph 3:5, Rev 22:15, Prov 8:36, James 3:6, Matt 18:1-9...All of these passages are addressed to believers. They all identify specific categories of sin that either prevent entry into the Kingdom and/or lead to Gehenna fire. I think all of these passages including Matt 5 are talking about sin unto death....not just physical death, but soul death (separation) which I am convinced is real.

Quote:
Mark 8:36"For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world, and forfeit his soul?
Again, addressed to believers.


So, I think you're right, but it looks like Jesus is also talking about sin unto death and removing the things that cause stumbling (which requires 1John 1:9+Doctrine). At least that is what I see.

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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2016, 05:54 
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Okay, so what do you conclude from that about the meaning of Outer Darkness, etc.?


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2016, 19:17 
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The Outer Darkness is a result of the Soul Dying (experiencing separation from God's thinking) as explained by Mark 8:36.

1) The believer either never grows up because he spends his time in the cosmic system. Or an advanced believer denies Christ (Hebrews 6:6 and Hebrews 10:26). This is described in Luke 8:13&14. No dying grace for these people as long as they refuse to grow, therefore they die sin unto death.

2) When these believers face the Judgment Seat, all of their works are burned away. So instead of the fire being a purifying force, it becomes to them the Gehenna Fire. The idea is, they are like sons being passed through the fire and therefore die (suffering loss) as in the Moloch offerings in the Valley of Gehenna. Its not God's doing, but the individual believer's choice. (James 3:6, Matt 5, Rom 2:5 Matt 10:28).

3) Therefore, the believer who has passed through the Gehenna fire (losing everything) may not enter the Millennial Kingdom (Matt 24:51, Matt 25:10-12&30). I don't know where they will be sent to, but it does seem that they will sit out the entire 1050 years of Christ's reign. The weeping and gnashing of teeth will probably end when the Eternal State begins.

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PostPosted: 12 Jun 2016, 08:12 
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Okay, there are a lot of Bible verses which contradict those conclusions. Rev1:5, 5:10 contradict 3), though of course the never-matured believer won't be a head.

1) Soul doesn't die, and separation isn't technically true either, as the person is in heaven. DISTANT, maybe. But separated, not like hell is.

2) Fire is not literal in 1Cor, 'as though through fire', not actual fire.

Ask God to show you other verses, these just sprang to mind while typing.


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PostPosted: 12 Jun 2016, 21:42 
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Rev 1:5--No human (believer or non-believer) can be judged for sin, because Christ was judged for us. Therefore Gehenna cannot refer to a judgment for sin, but a judgment of useless works (as a result of extended stay in the Cosmic Sys). I don't see the contradiction, because Matt 5 is not condemning sin itself, but failure to rebound from sin (shining the light Matt 5:16), aka residence in the Cosmic Sys:
    Matt 5:24 reconcile with your brother before presenting an offering.
    Matt 5:29 if your eye makes you stumble, tear it out
    Matt 5:30 if your hand makes you stumble, cut it off

Rev 5:10--Christ has made us kings and priests to reign upon the earth, but a believer cannot reign as a king or serve as a priest if they abdicate their Royal Priesthood in Christ.

1 Cor 3:15--I was thinking about this last night while trying to fall asleep. Fire is a symbol for judgment, equally so, Gehenna is used as a symbol too. Nevertheless, I still think Gehenna fire corresponds with 1 Cor 3:15.

Soul-Death--Maybe a better term would be soul-injury/destruction.

Quote:
Matt 10:28 “And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul (ψυχὴν); but rather fear Him who is able to destroy (ἀπολέσαι) both soul (ψυχὴν) and body in hell (γεέννῃ).

Quote:
Mark 8:35“For whoever wishes to save his life (ψυχὴν) shall lose (ἀπολέσει) it; but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel’s shall save it. 36“For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world, and forfeit (ζημιωθῆναι) his soul (ψυχὴν)? 37“For what shall a man give in exchange for his soul (ψυχῆς)? 38“For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”

Quote:
Rev 2:11 ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt (ἀδικηθῇ) by the second death.

Quote:
Rev 3:1“To the angel of the church in Sardis write:
He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars, says this: ‘I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead (νεκρὸς). 2‘Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die (ἀποθανεῖν); for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God.

(These passages all seem to be addressed to believers.)

Our souls are created in the image of God. We have the ability to think and make decisions independent of our emotions. That is what separates us from animals. If we choose to reject doctrine and live in the Cosmic system, we enter emotional revolt. In that stage, our emotions think for us and we are no longer functioning in the image of God. Death of the soul would then be the refusal/severe inability to think bible doctrine.

Think of it as muscle atrophy or myopathy. If you do not use your muscles, they experience atrophy. The muscle is still there, but it is shrinking and becomes almost completely useless.

So when I say soul death, I mean severe soul atrophy (to a near animalistic state). Its still a human soul in the image of God, but only by a thread. I think this is a very recurrent theme in the NT. Again, the emphasis is not on sin itself, but on the consequences for not using 1John 1:9, which inevitably involves sin (developing into crippling complexes).

The further I go into RBT's Revelation series, the more I see it.

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PostPosted: 13 Jun 2016, 04:37 
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Soul atrophy, yes. Thieme even uses the term, in later years, and that makes sense. Atrophy shrinks, as you know. But again this comes from not growing, not directly from sin.


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PostPosted: 13 Jun 2016, 05:22 
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Sin is not the direct cause of soul atrophy, but it is the gateway, and it is VERY addictive. What I gather from Matt 5:16-32 is that Jesus is telling us to let our Light shine (filling of Holy Spirit), and not to let sin railroad us into a Cosmic spiral (covering the Light)...because that is the cause of soul atrophy. When you're in the Cosmic system, you're either not taking in doctrine, or worse, you're not even using 1John 1:9 at all....but it always starts with a tiny sin that grows into a monster. That's why Christ put such an emphasis on removing the things that cause you to stumble.

If Matt 5 is addressed to believers (and I think it is), then how can Gehenna be a symbol for Hell? Why else would Jesus be condemning these sins? I think He's warning us to avoid entry into the Cosmic system.

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PostPosted: 13 Jun 2016, 07:05 
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Because Gehenna is used as a symbol of Hades in other verses, that's why it's a symbol of hell, but the idea of BURNING is separate, as in 1Cor3.

Gehenna was a noxious trash dump.

As to put away what makes you stumble, you can't do that apart from learning and living on doctrine, so the emphasis is still growth, not sin.


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 Post subject: A millennium in Darkness
PostPosted: 29 Jun 2016, 04:01 
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My mind went back to the Outer Darkness. Lets say the immature go to the Outer Darkness for the entire span of the Millennium. Why would this be the case? For the protection of the immature believer.

During the Millennium, there will be sinners ruled by sinless resurrected kings. At some point, those sinners are going to reproduce, and some of those offspring will be non-believers. So what keeps the kings from sinning?

The kings will no sin nature, so its not that they cannot sin (that would violate free will), but that they will not be tempted by internal arrogance and will have sufficient doctrine to resist temptation produced by the arrogance from outside parties. Basically resurrected kings will not desire sin and will not be lured into it.

Adam and Eve did not possess sin natures when they were created, so they were not tempted to sin from within. It was Satan's smooth talk that prompted them to sin. What Eve lacked was the desire to apply doctrine and therefore it was her failure to apply doctrine that made her weak. The same goes for Adam; he chose Eve over God.

Therefore the resurrected immature believers would be in a similar position as Adam and Eve. Their souls would be too atrophied to apply the doctrine needed to keep them from resisting socio-environmental temptation. They would not have the doctrinal capacity to serve under Christ, let alone live among the sinners of the Millennium without sinning themselves.

So maybe the Outer Darkness is more of a daycare center for the immature while our Lord and His Royal Priests reign.

During the Eternal State, there will be no sin to tempt anybody (inside or out). Therefore no Outer Darkness is needed there. All sin and temptation will be in the Lake of Fire.

Just a hypothesis.

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PostPosted: 29 Jun 2016, 06:20 
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I don't know. Depends on whether the ruling is done ONLY by resurrected believers, or not. If ONLY by resurrected believers, then the kings need entourages, some bureacracy. So either not all mature become kings, or not all believers need to be mature to be part of those lower echelons.

I'm sure some are out in space somewhere, not actually on earth. Too many. Thieme speculates sometime in 1999 or 2000 (as part of 1992 Spiritual Dynamics series) that they all come on earth, but are 'cooling their heels', watching and not ruling. But a ruling CLASS is needed, not just a king on his own. So the question is, of WHAT GROUP is the ruling CLASS?


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PostPosted: 29 Jun 2016, 15:51 
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Thats a good point. I wonder if the highest ranks will be kings, and the medium ranks will form the bureacracy?

I somewhat agree with Thieme on the cooling of heels.

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PostPosted: 29 Jun 2016, 18:43 
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I first tried guessing the total based on some of the Colonel's ad hoc ruminations during 1992 SD, here: http://www.brainout.net/LvS4b.htm#Balancing

Not sure how good it is. Am sure what I then remembered of what Thieme said, is included.

It boils down to whether you have a bunch of Daniels at the top, in which case you don't need many, with a whole lot of underlings who don't have to have matured, like ancient agricultural societies vs. today's modern overloaded system.

Somehow I think the isagogics would mean the older method is better. :P


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 Post subject: Re: Gehenna
PostPosted: 29 Jun 2016, 20:39 
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Anonynomenon wrote:
Well, I don't think Jesus is talking about single occurrences of mental attitude sins. I think He means lust complexes, guilt complexes, and hate complexes. Chain mental attitude sinning tends to occupy the time of the carnal believer and becomes an obsession. If stuck in a sin complex, there is no spiritual growth. Maybe that's where Paul got Ephesians 5:3-14.


It's never the 'type' of sin as that starts to unravel the doctrine of God doing the work. If YOU had to focus on the type of sin that that's something YOU'RE doing; and this is a constant problem that works salvationists do "you have to stop sinning XYZ", which is emphasizing that you need to stop that specific sin, while they obliviously do other sins but are too stupid to comprehend it and realize it's impossible to know all sins hence 1 John 1:9-- and even if you could learn all sin types that would hinder learning more important concepts). Also this removes the distinguishing on the 'worst' sin which is never doing metanoia (mind change), which is also linked to the unforgivable sin. For... if you never change your mind, you can't get anywhere.

Therefore it's always God doing the work, and the believer never locking their thinking to bypass mindchange.

Anonynomenon wrote:
So maybe the Outer Darkness is more of a daycare center for the immature while our Lord and His Royal Priests reign.

During the Eternal State, there will be no sin to tempt anybody (inside or out). Therefore no Outer Darkness is needed there. All sin and temptation will be in the Lake of Fire.

Just a hypothesis.


We'd have to figure out why the 'daycare' would have wailing and gnashing of teeth. I can't think of any reasons so I'm going to say it's not a daycare (or nightcare in this case).

I don't think the issue is sin here, it's maturity. God can't force people how to think, we'd just have different bodies. So it's still wholly possible for someone to have a sucky mental attitude post bema.

~~ and that's what I always struggle with. God has to honour volition, but volition has to honour choice. So if choice is ultimately being honoured, that means you [could still] potentially do things you shouldn't do. The best solution for this that I have is you won't via being an 'invalid action'. For instance, there's things you *wouldn't do* (i.e. murder your best friend) while being on planet earth, so likewise there's things you *wouldn't do* in new jerusalem / EVEN THOUGH you 'could'. The 'could' always has to be active, even if that means there are no temptations.

...Which unfortnuately brings up the wormhole of what happens if someone DOES sin in New Jerusalem? My guess is that Christ's death would automatically pay for it. But then does that affect the ressurection body, does something happen on repeat in a cycle? The person couldn't go to hell else that means salvation isn't permanent. But this also renders the system of GETTING a resurrection body superfluous. Unless this is only necessary while the angelic conflict is 'on'.
(although the easiest way on figuring that bit out is going back to the salvation package offered to the demons), I don't think all of that is necessarily needed to figure out outer darkness, so I'm holding out on going further on that tangent.

---
Going back to outer darkness, what if:

Outer Darkness + wailing / teeth gnashing
(pre-eternal)

No more sorrow / tears
(eternal)

If God mixed the two together, that would be balancing your worst nightmare and your best dream.

---
One key mentioned earlier on this page was Moses not being let into the promised land. Mentally, that's fairly akin to someone's personal 'outer darkness'. But applying Romans 8:28 and it can be reversed. If outer darkness is a subsection in New Jerusalem for aborted kings, then they should still surely have Romans 8:28. But the difference here is that Moses actually *used* Romans 8:28.


Anonynomenon wrote:
Ok. Pay close attention to these verses:
Quote:
Rev 21:8“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”


Key word, "unbelieving", they go to Lake of Fire.

Quote:
Rev 22:14Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.


Notice that you must was your robes (soul) to enter New Jerusalem and have access to the Tree of Life.

Also notice that verse 15 does not say the sorcerers, etc are "unbelieving", nor does it say they are in Lake of Fire. It simply says they are OUTSIDE

Quote:
Rev 22:19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.


So, if your soul isn't washed in Christ (Mind of Christ), you don't get Fruit of Life and you don't enter New Jerusalem.

What do you guys think? Is this smoking gun material?


Also as mentioned earlier before, you will also notice that it doesn't necessarily imply that the city itself is 'new jerusalem'. You could have a large expanse of space OUTSIDE the kingdom. So the whole landmass could be what 'New Jerusalem' actually is.

And the gates never close:
Quote:
Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.


Which I still think means that unbelievers can pop out of the lake of fire and come in if they ever mind change.


Last edited by hupostasis on 30 Jun 2016, 05:09, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 29 Jun 2016, 23:01 
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@Hupostasis

Why weeping and gnashing in the Outer Darkeness? For the simple reason that they have been excluded from the kingdom.

The issue is maturity, as it takes maturity to maintain a high mental attitude, but the fact remains that there are mental attitude sins. So if a resurrected aborted king is not mature enough, what is to stop him/he from folding under temptation??? The best thing would be to isolate that individual from temptation until the Eternal State.

I don't think there is an Outer Darkness in the Eternal State. There would be no need.

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PostPosted: 30 Jun 2016, 02:08 
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Anonynomenon wrote:
Why weeping and gnashing in the Outer Darkeness? For the simple reason that they have been excluded from the kingdom.

What I was getting at is that a purgatory-like environment isn't like a daycare at all :p

Anonynomenon wrote:
The issue is maturity, as it takes maturity to maintain a high mental attitude, but the fact remains that there are mental attitude sins. So if a resurrected aborted king is not mature enough, what is to stop him/he from folding under temptation??? The best thing would be to isolate that individual from temptation until the Eternal State.

I don't think there is an Outer Darkness in the Eternal State. There would be no need.

The problem I can see with that theory is that... not everyone who doesn't mature will necessarily be like that (which is why Christ outlined the different types of believers). A type 2 believer may very well suffer from "temptation", but type 3 is still going to be positive towards Christ. So if being in the kingdom relies on raw maturity, you 'll really slim it down to almost nothing-- and you cut out friends who *are* positive towards Christ, they just can't be bothered to do 1 John 1:9 or focus on the Bible for long.

Positive volition always has merit, even if someone doesn't have a lot of doctrine.

Furthermore the people in autosave will potentially not be as mature as those who have studied, and they definitely aren't going to be in outer darkness.

I just couldn't see all of type 2 and (especially) type 3 subjected to outer darkness due to limited maturity.


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PostPosted: 30 Jun 2016, 02:32 
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@ Hupostasis
Quote:
The problem I can see with that theory is that... not everyone who doesn't mature will necessarily be like that (which is why Christ outlined the different types of believers). A type 2 believer may very well suffer from "temptation", but type 3 is still going to be positive towards Christ. So if being in the kingdom relies on raw maturity, you 'll really slim it down to almost nothing-- and you cut out friends who *are* positive towards Christ, they just can't be bothered to do 1 John 1:9 or focus on the Bible for long.

Positive volition always has merit, even if someone doesn't have a lot of doctrine.

Furthermore the people in autosave will potentially not be as mature as those who have studied, and they definitely aren't going to be in outer darkness.

I just couldn't see all of type 2 and (especially) type 3 subjected to outer darkness for reasons of temptation.


Ok, so more like time-out than day care.

Ok, so lets redefine maturity as spiritual progress (however small it may be). Think of 4 categories of people, where muscle tone symbolizes spiritual progress:

1) The average Joe with standard muscle development. Nothing impressive, but it is sufficient for day to day activities.

2) The construction worker who is much stronger. His muscles are more developed to suite the need of his job.

3) The profession athlete. His muscles are built up and finely tuned for maximum performance. His body is capable of working at 100% potential.

4) The couch potato. This person does nothing. Probably doesn't work, and his muscles have begun to degenerate to the point of uselessness. This is the Outer Darkness candidate.

Now, keep in mind that 80% of Protestant churches DO NOT teach or emphasize 1John 1:9, so the current pool of positive believers is probably pretty slim.

Now look at what Jesus told Nicodemus.

Quote:
John 3:1Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; 2this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” 3Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot seethe kingdom of God.” 4Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” 5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enterinto the kingdom of God. 6“That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7“Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8“The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”


Seeingthe kingdom (as Moses did from Mt. Pisgah) is as simple as faith in Christ.

Enteringthe kingdom requires being born out of water (the Word of God).

Quote:
Eph 5: 25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, 26so that He might sanctify her, havingcleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.

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PostPosted: 30 Jun 2016, 04:48 
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Anonynomenon wrote:
@ Hupostasis
Quote:
The problem I can see with that theory is that... not everyone who doesn't mature will necessarily be like that (which is why Christ outlined the different types of believers). A type 2 believer may very well suffer from "temptation", but type 3 is still going to be positive towards Christ. So if being in the kingdom relies on raw maturity, you 'll really slim it down to almost nothing-- and you cut out friends who *are* positive towards Christ, they just can't be bothered to do 1 John 1:9 or focus on the Bible for long.

Positive volition always has merit, even if someone doesn't have a lot of doctrine.

Furthermore the people in autosave will potentially not be as mature as those who have studied, and they definitely aren't going to be in outer darkness.

I just couldn't see all of type 2 and (especially) type 3 subjected to outer darkness for reasons of temptation.


Ok, so more like time-out than day care.

Ok, so lets redefine maturity as spiritual progress (however small it may be). Think of 4 categories of people, where muscle tone symbolizes spiritual progress:

1) The average Joe with standard muscle development. Nothing impressive, but it is sufficient for day to day activities.

2) The construction worker who is much stronger. His muscles are more developed to suite the need of his job.

3) The profession athlete. His muscles are built up and finely tuned for maximum performance. His body is capable of working at 100% potential.

4) The couch potato. This person does nothing. Probably doesn't work, and his muscles have begun to degenerate to the point of uselessness. This is the Outer Darkness candidate.

Now, keep in mind that 80% of Protestant churches DO NOT teach or emphasize 1John 1:9, so the current pool of positive believers is probably pretty slim.

Now look at what Jesus told Nicodemus.

Quote:
John 3:1Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; 2this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” 3Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot seethe kingdom of God.” 4Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” 5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enterinto the kingdom of God. 6“That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7“Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8“The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”


Seeingthe kingdom (as Moses did from Mt. Pisgah) is as simple as faith in Christ.

Enteringthe kingdom requires being born out of water (the Word of God).

Quote:
Eph 5: 25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, 26so that He might sanctify her, havingcleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.


I see where you're going with the analogy, but I think the variable should be something else (as muscles imply you do the work and not God). Spiritual maturation is a mental process and not physical: so we're all the 'couch potato' while studying. Using a physical analogy will just add confusion and satisfy a human nature that's already affixed to works.

Regarding John 3 (and based on what I said previously), all believers 'enter' the kingdom of God. This is compounded in Matthew:
Quote:
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that says to me, "Lord, Lord," will enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven.
John 6:40 And this is the will of Him that sent me, that everyone which sees the Son, and believes on Him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So to ENTER the kingdom of heaven, we simply just believe. And that's what being born of the spirit means (the 'born of water' part is actually literal to being born of the flesh and not the Word of God). To say that you have to be spiritually mature to enter contradicts this and the believer types. And it also has to ignore the fact that the spiritually immature don't INHERIT the kingdom but still ENTER it:
Quote:
1 Corinthians 6:9 Don't you know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Don't be deceived: neither fornicators, or idolaters, or adulterers, or effeminate, or abusers of themselves with mankind,


Although... this bit is a bit tricky and it was brought up before:
Quote:
Matthew 7:23 And then will I state to them, "I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity."

The key is the 'depart', it's not certain if this 'departing' is keyed for unbelievers or unbelievers and believers. If we were to assume that these people didn't do the will of the Father (believe Christ paid for their sins), then the departing is to the lake of fire. But who says it's just unbelievers? But in any case they wouldn't be 'departing' to the same places if that was the case-- and it's not explained if that would be outer darkness or simply just lack of inheritances if we wanted to look at it that deeply.

If it was outer darkness, it would still have to be 'in' the kingdom-- since all believers enter the kingdom.


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PostPosted: 30 Jun 2016, 04:56 
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Add into the mix that maybe all of Matthew is metered. It's a running anaphora, much like we found in the shorter amen legw humin, Anonynomenon.

For look: the exact phrase is used in Matt 8:12, 13:42, 13:50, 22:13, and of course 24:51 and 25:30 as we're discussing in that related thread on its meter.

Distance between end Matt 24 BEFORE the clause 'weeping and gnashing of teeth' and AFTER 25:30's end of clause, is divisible by 7 (2632-1659=973, also 2632-1673, and 2632 is divisible by 7). So are the other occurrences? Why only two, and not all of them?

Kill me now. For if Matt is wholly metered, then so are all the other books, mebbe.

Note that in the parable of the virgins, the line does not exist. Is that ellipsis since a well-known phrase by that point, or since it is omitted there but included at the end, what distinction to OUTSIDE as hupostasis states, might there be?

@hupostasis : lol little did we all know that when you brought up this thread it would lead to the Matt24-25 meter in its current form and back to this thread to help answer it!


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PostPosted: 30 Jun 2016, 05:08 
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@ Hupostasis

Well, I simply chose the muscle, because muscle atrophy parallels soul atrophy so well. I think by now, you and I know the difference between human works and God's works. If anyone reading this page doesn't understand that fundamental principle, then they probably shouldn't be reading our conversation in the first place. Anyways, Paul likens the spiritual life to running a race. You could say that implies work, but it really doesn't, because we are the craftsmanship of God.

Quote:
Matt 7:21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’


I think you should look at Matt 7:21 in its full context. In the Parable of the Ten Virgins (Matt 25) the foolish virgins (who are believers too) say "LORD, LORD", and our Lord's response is "Amen, I do not know you".

The will of the Father begins with believing in His Son, but that is just the beginning. To complete His will, you must abide in Christ.

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PostPosted: 30 Jun 2016, 05:20 
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@ Brainout

We know that the Outer Darkness is being EXCLUDED from the Wedding in Matt 22, and I still contend that Moses being left on Mt. Pisgah is a direct correlation to the Outer Darkness as well. Both of those emphasis EXCLUSION.

I'll have to revisit the story of Abraham, Melkizedek and Lot. I think that had a kingdom vs Outer Darkness theme too. My recollection on that is pretty vague at the moment.

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PostPosted: 30 Jun 2016, 05:46 
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Anonynomenon wrote:
Well, I simply chose the muscle, because muscle atrophy parallels soul atrophy so well. I think by now, you and I know the difference between human works and God's works. If anyone reading this page doesn't understand that fundamental principle, then they probably shouldn't be reading our conversation in the first place. Anyways, Paul likens the spiritual life to running a race. You could say that implies work, but it really doesn't, because we are the craftsmanship of God.


I'm always like that because I have my brain running everything in a sort of autocorrect. So even if I forget things, I'll still come to the same conclusions based on the mental database. Ergo, 'muscle' can never be likened to spiritual growth (in my mind).

Paul likens the kingship to a 'race' because of the variables (re: prizes & contestants), but it's not a 'muscle race' and Hebrews 12:1 explains that:
Quote:
1 Corinthians 9:24 Don't you know that they which run in a race run all, but one receives the prize? So run, that you may obtain.
Hebrews 12:1 Therefore seeing we are also compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which does so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,


Anonynomenon wrote:
Quote:
Matt 7:21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’


I think you should look at Matt 7:21 in its full context. In the Parable of the Ten Virgins (Matt 25) the foolish virgins (who are believers too) say "LORD, LORD", and our Lord's response is "Amen, I do not know you".

The will of the Father begins with believing in His Son, but that is just the beginning. To complete His will, you must abide in Christ.


I have read Matthew 7 in its entirety, all believers enter via believing Christ paid for sins. To say its maturity instead is not grace. What makes it different from Matthew 25 is the inclusion of 'the will of the father'.

I'm not sure if the foolish virgins are believers as well in that parable (to be honest it's one of the parables I just didn't like and never bothered to look into it deeply)-- because they didn't have any oil and had to buy some. However, oddly enough Christ brings up the Lord, Lord in Luke 6:
Quote:
Luke 6:46 And why do you call me, Lord, Lord, and don't do the things which I say?
Luke 6:47 Whoever comes to me, and hears my sayings, and does them, I will shew you to whom he is like:

However, there's no guarantee that ALL of the people Christ was speaking to were believers.

And of course that brings us back to Luke 13:
Quote:
Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
Luke 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
Luke 13:26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.


Notice it doesn't mention outer darkness this time to those who CAN'T enter? But it does mention wailing and gnashing of teeth which is also linked to outer darkness (every single time). And the whole reason why this group of people is being 'thrust out'. However, if these were unbelievers, why were they IN the kingdom and then sent out? And of course then that trickles back down to Luke 6, Matthew 25, and Matthew 7-- implying that it's not unbeliever exclusive.

So it's a full circle again, however the fact that belief is all that is required to ENTER should not be broken.
(I'd take a look more into some of the OLTs, but I had to reinstall windows and don't have BW9 installed atm).


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PostPosted: 30 Jun 2016, 05:56 
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@ Hupostasis

Fair enough, as long as you know that I'm not promoting human works.


I think Matt 7 was directed to both believers and non-believers, since the same principle applies in either case.

For non-believers, the narrow gate is believing in Christ and the wide gate is destruction via second death.

For believers, the narrow gate is abiding in Christ, and the wide gate is destruction (atrophy) of the Soul (Mark 8:35).

Nevertheless, remember the thread you started on the rich man in Mark 10?

Quote:
Mark 10:23And Jesus, looking around, said to His disciples, “How hard it will be for those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God!”


You stated that the rich man was a believer. I think you were right. I also believe that all 10 virgins were believers too.

Furthermore, look at John 15. It was addressed to believers only...

Quote:
John 15:6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.


now compare that to Matt 7.

Quote:
Matt 7:19“Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire

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PostPosted: 30 Jun 2016, 06:32 
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Anonynomenon wrote:
Fair enough, as long as you know that I'm not promoting human works.
I think Matt 7 was directed to both believers and non-believers, since the same principle applies in either case.
For non-believers, the narrow gate is believing in Christ and the wide gate is destruction via second death.
For believers, the narrow gate is abiding in Christ, and the wide gate is destruction (atrophy) of the Soul (Mark 8:35).
Nevertheless, remember the thread you started on the rich man in Mark 10?
Quote:
Mark 10:23And Jesus, looking around, said to His disciples, “How hard it will be for those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God!”

You stated that the rich man was a believer. I think you were right. I also believe that all 10 virgins were believers too.
Furthermore, look at John 15. It was addressed to believers only...
Quote:
John 15:6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

now compare that to Matt 7.
Quote:
Matt 7:19“Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire

For now I'm on the fence with Matthew 7 and the 10 virgins. The rich man in Mark 10 was definitely saved.

The parallel on Matthew 7 and John 15 are going back to 1 Corinthians 3:13 (and while I want to say it's not related to ENTERing the kingdom of God, this always seems to come up from the behind of outer darkness).
Quote:
1 Corinthians 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1 Corinthians 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


And then that goes full circle back to the famous 'saved, yet as so by fire'. Of course meaning actually saved, but you did a poor job, son!


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PostPosted: 30 Jun 2016, 06:47 
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@ Hupostasis

Full circle indeed. This Outer Darkness thing has completely shifted my understanding of scripture, and every time I think I've reached a dead end, I find another rabbit hole to explore (especially Matt 24-25 meter).

I know that you do not make a distinction between the human soul and spirit, but maybe you might want to readdress that issue. I think it would help put a lot of things in perspective for you. It certainly resolved a lot of "contradictions" for me. That takes us back to the "three type salvation" topic.

I'm done for the night. Its good to see you back in the forum. God has used this particular thread to change my life...no joke.

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PostPosted: 30 Jun 2016, 07:22 
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I didn't complete the 1965 Matthew series so don't have notes on Thieme's 'take' on it at the time. Do have the classes, though.

Conventional theological interp is that weeping/gnashing refers to hell/LOF. I think it's much more nuanced than that, a set of parallels, as you both are finding. In particular, the OMISSION of weeping/gnashing clause from the close of the parable of the virgins means they are believers. But can have an 'outside' fate like unbelievers but not as severe (i.e., still saved, still part of the kingdom of heaven just as the parable says, but 'shut out' in some way).

Question is, how to prove the exact precision. I know it's there, but can't see the exact keyword flow right now.

And yeah, my life hasn't been the same since you started this thread, hupostasis. :hattip:


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PostPosted: 30 Jun 2016, 09:03 
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Bumping this up. Highlighted the 'bump' in red below. That will be key to the meter, whether it's an 'over there' meaning, or 'learn this lesson' meaning.

See, if it's 15 syllables, it goes EKEI, ESTAI HO... implying a stress on PLACE.
If it's 14 syllables, elision swallowing EI and ES, then seems to me it stresses the LESSON.

But 14 syllables is growth under testing (Jacob the origin of that doctrinal accounting metaphor, working 14 years for two wives). So would it also be used where the text refers to hell in other parts of Matthew?

I don't know. Haven't slept well since end Feb, but this is a good reason to lose sleep.

Anonynomenon wrote:
Thank you so much for writing this. The subject has been on my mind for the past few days now. My apologies for throwing your last thread off topic. These doctrines are so interconnected that its hard to stay focused on one single subject.

I've come to agree with you and Brainout, the outer darkness has to be reserved for lazy believers who didn't invest their talents.

One question I have is Jesus said on a few occasions, 'they will be thrown into outer darkness, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth'.

Does that mean, "OVER THERE, is a place for weeping and gnashing of teeth"?

Or is that to say that weeping and gnashing of teeth will come about after discovering their loss?

I would assume that weeping and gnashing of teeth is just the initial shock, and that those believers would have to get over it. I mean to live in bitterness is sin, and there isn't supposed to be sin after resurrection. The same goes for jealousy.

I'm thinking for the outer darkness dwellers of heaven, there will be temporary weeping and gnashing of teeth, but then life will go on in the outer darkness.


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PostPosted: 02 Jul 2016, 02:14 
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I was listening to RBT's Rev series, Lesson 457_0155, and I realized that I was overlooking a very important detail. Thieme stated that the Parable of Minas in Luke 19 was Bema for OT believers ONLY (maybe Tribulation believers can be included, don't know at this point). I couldn't figure out why he believed that, and then it hit me; The servants are judged at the Second Advent, no sooner. Therefore, the same can be said about Matt 24:42-51 and the Parable of Talents in Matt 25, since those are Second Advent passages too.

Again in the Wedding Feast Parable in Matt 22, we see the Bema before the Wedding at the Second Advent. And Matt 8:12 is Second Advent too.

Finally, Luke 13:22-30 (which I believe is primarily for believers) is about salvation of the soul, in the same way as those who endure to the end will be saved in Matt 10:22.

So my point is that, Luke 19:11-27, Matt 24:42-51, Matt 25:14-30, Matt 22:1-14, Matt 8:5-12, and Luke 13:22-30 all center around the Second Advent Bema event (not Rapture Bema), and all cases of Outer Darkness and Weeping and Gnashing of Teeth are therefore associated with Second Advent Bema.

So if the Outer Darkness is an exclusion from the Kingdom (and I still think it is Luke 13:28, Matt 8:12), is there any evidence that it will apply to the Church at all?

Possibilities:

1) Church was not supposed to happen, therefore it was not included in the cited verses, but the exact same penalty will be applied to Church apostates.

2) The Church is exempt because it is the Bride.

I'm not convinced that all of Church is the Bride, so I'm going with #1 for now. Part of my reasoning is that Church is the Body of Christ. Adam's bride was a small portion of his own body. Christ is the Last Adam, therefore His Bride will be a small portion of His Body (a portion of Church).

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PostPosted: 02 Jul 2016, 04:02 
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Well, we don't want to conflate similar events. Matt10:22 (and later Hebrews 10 end) refers to persecution, i.e., the upcoming destruction of Jerusalem, not enduring to be saved spiritually. So is not the Bema, but how to be delivered while still alive down here.

Luke 13:22ff's Kingdom of God and Kingdom of heaven, are they the same? Or is the latter subset of the former? That's a long debate many have. I forget where Thieme came down on it. Luke 13:22 is about salvation, but there are many topics in the chapter, and it's not clear how you can assume that the physical deliverance talked about in Matt10:22 is the same as that in Luke 13:22ff.

I'll have to look up the Rev class in my notes and reply later.


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PostPosted: 02 Jul 2016, 04:14 
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Yeah, disregard what I said about Matt 10:22. Apparently I wasn't thinking very clearly when I wrote that.

I've often wondered about the Kingdom of Heaven vs Kingdom of God issue, though I've never really explored it. Maybe I should do that.

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PostPosted: 02 Jul 2016, 14:13 
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Okay, re the minas thingy in Luke 19 (I've still not looked up my Rev notes): the inner story of giving servants money and the stingy one is in a different overall context versus Matt 25. Looks like the Lord told that inner parable two ways. So the meaning is related yet not the same.

I gotta think it over.


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