FrankForum (Frankness IS Forum)

Yeah, Koran does the same thing in many Suras, with three letter prefixes, each used the same way. You know Arabic is a cousin of Hebrew.

@hupostasis: there's a lot to chew over in your post! The Ezekiel 41 hapaxlogomena will be important. Temple inner versus Temple outer is a big metaphor in the OT. The so-called hall of the Gentiles. So analogy of 'outer' probably refers to that. Except, maybe in the eternal state, the outer folks are the aborted kings, no distinction as to Jew or Gentile.

Bear in mind that the analogy for eternity, is that the believers are the Temple. So this huge emphasis since Exodus on Tabernacle and Temple, is ultimately talking about the Temple the temple depicts, and we become Him. So wouldn't we too be 'arranged' like parts of a building? Just thinking out loud here, so much more has to be threshed out.

As for the OT covenant not having a 'kings' title, well who cares. Surely Abraham, Moses, David, Isaiah, etc. are part of the inner circle just as much as any CA 'kings'. I don't know whether 'king' always and only means a higher status, versus any OT hero. Isaiah 53:12 uses 'atsumim', usually translated 'great ones' without distinction as to title, but NT uses 'kings'. Will they only be Church, with that title? And if 'yes', does that negate the level of the title with anyone in the OT? Who knows, and frankly who cares. Lambast me if I'm being too flippant, k.

Inner versus outer should matter, as the access and frequency of seeing Him should be something everyone wants.

'Darkness' too as a generalized meaning with nuances per group targeted.

As for the Wedding parable, the usual interpretation is that the friends are saved Jews, the Bride is Church, and the guy who comes in without the proper attire is unsaved. But improperly attired yet at the wedding: is he crashing the wedding and if so how would God be allowing that; or if a believer and should be at the wedding but improperly attired so must leave -- how? For guests were given special clothing to wear. That was custom then. So how not a believer, if there at all? We could say lacking the Doctrinal clothing, but why would that bar a believer, since all Church is Bride, not merely attendee?

So I don't actually have a personal stance on it, except to say it's the parallel to Esther story. Many of the details I can repeat from Thieme or some other pastor, but some of the interpretations seem 'off'. But can I prove yet, something better? No.

Maybe it's better to aggregate the portions which alike use 'outer' and 'darkness' to each other? In the above tally and in the OP, we now have Ezekiel 41:15, Matt 8, 22, 25, maybe Luke 13. Idea to take one analogy/figure at a time.

Doctrines are never isolated, but to find the 'thread' of 'outer darkness' should be a matter of searching on the usage of the words and their synonyms, pan-Bible. That is easy to do with today's technology, so likely there will be disagreement with past 'scholarship', which knew to do this kind of search, but couldn't do it as quickly, so would have missed stuff. Frankly it's a miracle they got as much right as they did.

So notice: in Ezekiel 41:15, the parallel Greek exzwteron is used for hatzer, though the Hebrew means 'court', which by definition is something 'inside'. But in the Hebrew, hatzer is looking inward. You infer the outward (hutz, in Hebrew) as anything NOT inside.

So now compare Ezekiel 42:1 (which uses hutz) and 20 (last verse in Chapter). The 'outer' is much bigger, and what? It separates the holy from the profane (lit. hebrew, 'common'). So that presents a problem, too. Isn't ALL Church 'holy'? And if Lake of Fire is a separate universe -- and we know it is -- then what is left to be 'profane'?

'But brainout, this is a Millennial passage', someone will say. Quite right. Yet is it not parallel? If so, to what?

Maybe I should just stop typing, as I keep throwing up roadblocks without solutions.

You bring up really good points, hupostasis. I have no answer to resolve them. Generally I see the whole as you do, but we do have to resolve the inconsistencies. For whatever we claim some one part means, the other parts seem to contradict. Since the Bible is not to blame, only our limited understanding can be at fault. So the answer to the seeming contradictions is in Scripture.. somewhere.

Ergo the suggestion we just handle one of the rhetorical analogies at a time, viz. 'outer' coupled with 'darkness'. Once we're sure of that one's meaning (if we can be, absent cracking the rhetorics of the rest), then we can proceed. At least, that's how it seems..?

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

@Anonynomemon

Maybe if you'd also separate out the concepts and deal with them one at a time. For example, how do you know parse kletos from eklektos? Not that I disagree, but the usual interp is that kletos would include unsaved, but eklektos only means saved.

Parallelism surely is happening here, but on what levels and how do we prove them? So I'm thinking that you guys keep on making such excellent posts with many related concepts inside. Maybe we need to parse out the verses or keywords one or two at a time? Or maybe I'm too slow on the uptake and my brain is out....

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

I tried to do a search for key words like, 'called', 'invited', 'elect', 'wedding', 'bridegroom', and I've found that all of Jesus' parables seem to be unique to the Gospels only. In OT, you will find certain 'buzz words' here and there like I highlighted in Job and Hannah's prayer (regarding the darkness and such), but the parables are only pieced together in the Gospels. That makes sense, for if you truly understand the OT, you understand how Jesus tied it all together in the parables.

So I doubt we will find a direct references to "outer darkness", "many called/few chosen", "weeping/gnashing of teeth", etc in any one place in OT/NT. Instead, the reader is expected to know the general meaning of darkness, what it means to be called, why the few are chosen, and how those elements function in the parables.

So while OT and NT prophecies have direct references to each other, parables are much more scattered.

At least thats what I'm finding. Maybe its not new to you guys, but that just hit me. We have to find how the prophecies are anchored to the parables, and more importantly; why? Thats what I tried to do with my 'Tribulation Believer Theory', but I realize that more is needed.

That's all for now. My head is swimming and I need a real night's sleep.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Yeah, how the prophecies are anchored to the parables.

So let's look up OT prophecies on each of the keywords, like 'outer', 'outside', 'darkness', 'called', etc. Just do searches and see if God throws out any specific ones for attention.

Or am I off in thinking that's a way to proceed?

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

@ Hupostasis

Matt 24 was written before Jesus was killed 7 years early, so the rapture is not metioned at all, since Church Age is Plan B.

The "one taken" while grinding at the mill is the non-believer taken by the Baptism of Fire/anti-rapture at 2nd Advent.

During the Trib, there will be three classes of people:
1)Non-belivers: tares
2)Obedient believers: accepted guests at banquet (white robes)
3)Disbedient believers: kicked out of banquet due to filthy clothes

Everyone is invited, some anctually go to wedding feast (believers), few have matured enough to dine in.

More later. Its all in Luke 14 and Matt 24 & 25 parables of servants.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

@ Hupostasis

Yeah. I know about the added text in Luke 14. I'll elaborate later when I have more time, but notice that Luke 14's setting is at a casual sabbath feast, not a wedding. Yet Jesus makes two feast lectures: one about wedding feasts, and one about common feasts.

The wedding feast is about matured believers vs unmatured believers, and their ranks of honor. So last will be first and first, last. But I still believe that Matt 22 teaches that total loser believers will lose even what little status they do have and they will be kicked out (not a loss of salvation, that can't happen). What little they had was an invitation and a reserved seat, but due too filthy garments they are unfit to attend. Again, I believe this is specific to the surviving Tribulation guests.

The common feast is saved vs unsaved. He said invite the poor for the can't pay you back. Thats our possition in salvation. God offers grace knowing that we can't repay.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Okay, Anonynomenon: but ALL believers between Pentecost and Rapture are Church, and all Church is Bride of Christ, Eph 5:22-32. And even in the wedding parable, present at the feast are friends of the Groom. So now what?

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

FYI, just reading what you both say for now. Am still thinking through what rhetorical search diagnostic makes most sense. Thus far, 'the darkness outside' or just 'outside' and then 'darkness'. But you both bring up so many other valid points I'm not sure what to think next. So if I seem silent, it means I'm reading and thinking over what y'all say.

@Brainout
That's ok. Got more coming up: minas, talents, 10 virgins...

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

@ Brainout & Hupostasis

Not sure how to progress with this, but I'd like to see how the Parables of Minas, Talents, and Ten Virgins fit in together with my theory. Again, this is assuming that the outer darkness is specific to the darkened earth outside the wedding feast. I believe it was Jeremiah who said the Second Advent would make the earth desolate and void ("thohu wabohu" to be specific).

Both Matt 24 and 25 repeat the warning to watch for the return of the Son of Man. So we know that Matt 24 & 25 are about waiting for 2nd Advent, NOT Rapture.

In Luke 19, the citizens who conspired against the returning King are kill upon His arrival, so that fits better with Tribulation Saints rather that Church Age.

And I feel that I've established a strong frame of reference with my above posts for the timing and setting of the Wedding Feast and Matt 22 + Luke 14.

So we have Parable of Minas in Luke 19, where 10 servants are put in charge of their master's finances, yet only 3 servants are highlighted just like in Parable of Talents.

Unlike the Parable of Talents, in Minas, each servant recieves the same 10 minas.

Yet, in Talents, each servant is given according to his ability...so what does a talent represent vs a minas. We all have individual and unique spiritual gifts, but we all have the same opportunity to mature. Assuming this is all in reference to Tribulation saints, this must tell us that they can all reach full maturity potential, but they all have different ways to fulfill God's protocol plan.

Church Age believers are King-priests (kings rule kingdoms/nations, not cities), yet, the mature TRIBULATION BELIEVERS who multiply their minas are awarded cities to rule. So maybe we are the kings of nations ruling over mayor/governors who are still (unresurrected) sinners. That emphasizes the need for king-PRIESTS. We will be ruling over believing sinners who have authority over a mix of believing and non-believing sinners.

Now lets look at the Parable of Virgins in Matt 25. There are 10 virgins, just like there are 10 servants in Minas. This time, instead of money, its oil. They are all invited to the Wedding Feast and they are waiting for it, so they are all believers. Therefore the oil must represent Bible Doctrine converted to Epignosis. Epignosis is the oil that will fuel the light until the Bridegroom arrives. The ones who didn't bring enough oil didn't have enough doctrine to sustain spiritual growth. In the last minute, the foolish ask for oil from the wise, but that would put the wise in a deficit. Does this mean the foolish believers will be asking for a crash-course bible study that would threaten to distract the wise from their duty???

I'm just thinking out loud here. That's why its all so disorganized. Feel free to jump in.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Okay, that's a good set of points for a framework. Gotta think them over a bit. Will respond more later.

It has come to my attention that the Mormons have their own 'spin' on Outer Darkness.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit_wo ... r_darkness
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/hell?lang=eng

Basically it's reversed to directly refer to hell (they don't seem to use the lake of fire or hell-- but rather outer darkness exclusively to umbrella it). From a satanic reversal perspective, this offers some hints.

We KNOW it's not hell, and it's being reversed into hell along with all of the corresponding variables for it to be such. So if we reverse it back: it's NOT hell, it's NOT reversed for unbelievers, it's NOT a literal 'place'.

Just thought I'd bring it up, since I wasn't aware satan gave this phrase special "cover-up" attention.

@Brainout

Actually, since our last discussion on Matt 22 in the Three Salvations thread, I'm back to square 1. But it can still be both literal (temporarily) and figurative (potentially permanent).

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Okay, well I'm sorta back to square one as well, for the same reasons. Seems to me the analogies in Matt8, 22, 25 deal with whether we did our 'job' in 'getting the Word out'. So 'we' in the OT is 'Jews', whether believing in Him or not, viz., Levites did not need to be saved, to be priests; they only had to be of the right tribe and without certain blemishes. So in the NT, only believers can be priests, but not learning Word has to have at least the stingy servant ramification...

We also need to determine whether the people in blemished cloths (in Matt 22) are believers or not.

I think they are. In that case, outer darkness could reflect the soul...that is if robes represent souls.

But then that puts lowest members of Church in outer darkness too, so that poses a contradiction (unless a double standard can be justified--I think not).

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Well clothing is a standard of dress. Being dressed in Christ, Gal 3:27, being dressed in the Groom's provided Clothing. That verse shows it's a result of salvation. Positional. Paul's equating salvation with the clothing. So the guy in his own clothes at the wedding, isn't saved.

So the analogy seems to be, that if your soul is still in its own clothes, the soul didn't get saved per James 1:21 (taking off your clothing because you got God's Wisdom in the previous verses) ..but juridically you are saved, so now you're in heaven alright.. but at its outer regions. Precisely because you cannot go to hell?

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Well, it's commonly stated with some sense, that Church entire is in the Wedding Feast. We are indeed all there in Rev 4:1, sea of glass. But the Wedding feast happens later. On Earth. Rev 19:9, says "Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb."

Okay, so maybe not all the Harem gets invited to attend its own wedding? I'm just thinking out loud, back to square one.

So then at least in Mat 22's case, outer darkness is the literal darkness of earth as a result of Yowm Yehwah, but being left in that temporary darkness reflects the condition of their souls...literal as a result of spiritual. That makes the most sense to me in this specific case.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Well, I don't know it would be as a result of Yowm Yehwah nor would it be Earth being dark itself, since the Wedding Feast takes place after He arrives, and His Arrival is full of light when it should be night, Zech 14:7.

Yeah, didn't think about Zech 14. I guess outer darkness would best be described as a distance from God like we initially guessed. If we go by the pictographic translation of 'hhoshekh', then the word for darkness would come from the figurative concept of segregation and distance to describe the physical absence of light.

I've been playing around with pictographic translations, they seem to be pretty consistent. Might be thread worthy.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

pictographic translations? You mean Benner's ideas?

Yeah, its Benners idea, but I don't use any of his definitions, I just try to figure it out myself.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Okay, well you need , then. I don't think any of the online copies of his book will have pictures of that chart ('downloadable copy, ).

Mine is hardback, 1909. In one of my KJVOB videos, I spent time (and Jeff helped do that too). That link's video description explains why, but for your purposes its import is different: it has other links to Hebrew materials which might help you in your quest.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Really good passage and yeah, you're right, it ties to our topic well. The quotation ties to Psalm 62 and Prov 24, Matt 16:27, Job 34:11, slew of verses in the TSK* database.

Yeah, Thieme called the non-use of 1John1:9 the 'law of double punishment' in the 1992 Spiritual Dynamics series. I've got the notebooks so could find out exactly where he started teaching that, it's on the spine of one of the notebooks, if you want me to locate it.

Notice how it all ties to 1Cor, esp. Chapter 3, 15. Paul actually wrote that first, according to his meter. Romans was written 56 AD and 1Cor, 18 months prior (assuming I didn't screw up the meter, lol).

But isn't it's a stretch to assume yet, "However, when a believer is cast into darkness and weeping/gnashing, this is like the worst punishment possible."

Again, since that phrasing is first used for the unsaved, even though logically it follows we saved have to have a parallel fate if we don't grow up in Him (for only He can cause the growth, so non-growth can only be due to rejection just as the unbeliever rejects) -- even though there is some kind of parallel fate, we can't yet say IN WHAT WAY it is parallel.

For like you and hupostasis and others noted prior, in heaven there is no more sorrow, etc.

Doesn't say no struggle. And, even down here, there are struggles we all like (for example, the struggle to type in these daft forum boxes).

*Treasury of Scripture Knowledge, database available in BW and many places on the web.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Again, we gotta prove that, hupostasis. Wailing and gnashing are not a minor contradiction, either.

Not saying there's no version which is true. That's the rub: if the unbeliever goes to hell for never believing, then there has to be a parallel of some other but like meaning for believers.

BELIEVING THE WORD is an ongoing need, for spiritual development, but the Word in question, is no longer merely the Gospel, once saved. It's the whole of Bible Doctrine.

So if I don't learn it, I'm not believing. If when I learn I limit that learning, I'm not believing. If I learn and learn and learn but don't live on it, again limit that believing.

Same 'crime'. So there must be a punishment. But, my guess is we then realize how just the punishment and are NOT unhappy as a result. There is contentment at receiving justice, even when that justice is against you. That's my guess, so far.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.