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PostPosted: 15 Oct 2015, 04:02 
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There are some issues with deadline salvation (i.e. that you only have the chance to 'be saved' while on planet earth or pre-bema otherwise you're stuck in hades and ultimately the lake of fire). Some people adhere to it, others don't. Some change their mind throughout their lifetime on it. I wanted to nail down some pros and cons.

Pros:
#1 The very existence of the lake of fire. It serves as a 'holding place', but why would God keep around the souls that don't want Him? It would make more sense to destroy them than to keep them. The argument against the lake of fire is that God is inhumane and evil: but it hurts God MORE than it hurts us... so that's an invalid point. So the most logical answer (so far) is that God has to put these souls 'somewhere' in hopes that they'll at some point mind change from unbelief to belief.

#2 Hades and Abraham's cove presently have a 'gulf' where it's possible to see one another from afar (Luke 16). This would indicate that the people in Hades are provided with an encouragement 'to believe' once they see the things happening on the other side. And when they've decided they had enough, to believe and join the rest on the 'other side' of the gulf.

#3 The re-payment on the bema where God fixes everyone's wrongdoings may require the unbeliever to have the opportunity to 'believe' and be saved to receive the compensation I would imagine. You couldn't receive compensation and still be in the lake of fire? And if so I am not aware of any verses supporting that. This is a more experimental point.

#4 With God 'all things are possible'. Deadline salvation would violate this. Furthermore, the very verses that come up, Christ was saying "it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter the kingdom of God". I view this as rhetorical, in the sense that as a RESULT of Grace, anyone can enter into the kingdom of God with belief. And the disciples response of course was "who then can be saved", well of course with God, all things are possible, in this case GRACE.
Quote:
Mark 10:26 And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
Mark 10:26 οἱ δὲ περισσῶς ἐξεπλήσσοντο λέγοντες πρὸς ἑαυτούς· καὶ τίς δύναται σωθῆναι;
Mark 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.
Mark 10:27 ἐμβλέψας αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς λέγει· παρὰ ἀνθρώποις ἀδύνατον, ἀλλ᾽ οὐ παρὰ θεῷ· πάντα γὰρ δυνατὰ παρὰ τῷ θεῷ.
---
Matthew 19:25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
Matthew 19:25 ἀκούσαντες δὲ οἱ μαθηταὶ ἐξεπλήσσοντο σφόδρα λέγοντες· τίς ἄρα δύναται σωθῆναι;
Matthew 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
Matthew 19:26 ἐμβλέψας δὲ ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς· παρὰ ἀνθρώποις τοῦτο ἀδύνατόν ἐστιν, παρὰ δὲ θεῷ πάντα δυνατά.

If it was not possible to get out of the lake of fire, "all things" would not be possible making God a liar.

#5 God wants everyone to change their mind from unbelief to belief:
Quote:
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning "His promise, as some men count slackness. But is patient towards us: not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to mind change.
2 Peter 3:9 οὐ βραδύνει κύριος τῆς ἐπαγγελίας, ὥς τινες βραδύτητα ἡγοῦνται, ἀλλὰ μακροθυμεῖ εἰς ὑμᾶς, μὴ βουλόμενός τινας ἀπολέσθαι ἀλλὰ πάντας εἰς μετάνοιαν χωρῆσαι.

Not possible if salvation is limited for a window of time.




Cons:
#1 You have to believe prior to the times 'of refreshing':
Quote:
KJV Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
NIV Acts 3:19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,
BGT Acts 3:19 μετανοήσατε οὖν καὶ ἐπιστρέψατε εἰς τὸ ἐξαλειφθῆναι ὑμῶν τὰς ἁμαρτίας,
BYZ Acts 3:19 Μετανοήσατε οὖν καὶ ἐπιστρέψατε, εἰς τὸ ἐξαλειφθῆναι ὑμῶν τὰς ἁμαρτίας, ὅπως ἂν ἔλθωσιν καιροὶ ἀναψύξεως ἀπὸ προσώπου τοῦ κυρίου,

Well, the remnants of that verse are not found in earlier manuscripts. It's sort of bizarre anyways, like all added verses I've encountered.

#2 The gulf is only present in hades and not the lake of fire, 'removing' the reminder for them to believe. Well, the lake of fire is probably going to be different and carry alternative forms of to get them 'to believe'.

#3 But what about the rich man in Luke 16... again there's no mentioning of him BELIEVING. Just because you see Abraham (or Lazarus) doesn't mean you're going to believe that Christ paid for your sins, the same reason why the Demons haven't believed in Christ for salvation (James 2:19).

#4 Everyone will mouth "Jesus Christ" and bow
Quote:
Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth
Philippians 2:10 ἵνα ἐν τῷ ὀνόματι Ἰησοῦ πᾶν γόνυ κάμψῃ ἐπουρανίων καὶ ἐπιγείων καὶ καταχθονίων
Philippians 2:11 And that every tongue should say that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Philippians 2:11 καὶ πᾶσα γλῶσσα ἐξομολογήσηται ὅτι κύριος Ἰησοῦς Χριστὸς εἰς δόξαν θεοῦ πατρός.

Ah, but notice it doesn't say BELIEVE (instead we have ἐξομολογήσηται, which is actually a bit different from homologeo, as it's exomologesetai). You can mouth something and not believe it (that's what James' whole theme is about... believers who mouth things but never believe what is said). So you could have the whole universe say "Jesus Christ" and not believe that He paid for their sins-- same situation of the demons. They don't want salvation or God. So... this cannot be interpreted that because everyone can 'mouth' something, that it proves they can't be saved afterwards... since they still HAVEN'T believed.

I'm on the side of salvation is possible after death. Otherwise we're left with some problematic contradictions (however, it could also be that I'm not seeing the whole picture).

I thought I'd take a few quotes from some random sources that argue the *opposite* to see if they provide any insight to some good verses:
equip.org wrote:
One well-known advocate of PME, Gabriel Fackre, argues that Scripture teaches that each human’s destiny is not fixed at death. The context of several key Bible passages, however, does not support his interpretation. In fact, these passages clearly say that everyone will die and be judged (Heb.9:27) and that each person’s eternal destiny, either reward or condemnation, will be based on what was done in this life (Matt.7:21–23;13:36–43; John5:28–29). Jesus, moreover, taught that each human’s destiny is fixed at death; for example, in His story of Lazarus, who was eternally in paradise, and the rich man, who was eternally in torment (Luke16:19–31).
Source: http://www.equip.org/article/is-there-s ... ter-death/

As we already know, the "what was done in this life" refers to Bible Doctrine in your head and not physical works (wood / hay / stubble). So Ronald Nash is on the left field of doing good works for salvation. As previously described, there's no indication that the Rich man believed. Furthermore, "riches" don't indicate you're going to hell for it's only ever unbelief and nothing else. And as we also previously saw, Christ said "all things are possible" via Grace-- even if you're "that rich man" and you believe that He paid for your sins, you'll be saved.

equip.org wrote:
In John10:16, Jesus states, “I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.” Fackre argues that the “other sheep” are unevangelized people who become Christians after death. I urge the reader to check as many evangelical commentaries as he or she likes; none of them follow this interpretation. The “other sheep” are understood to be Gentile Christians who were to be united with Jewish Christians into one flock, the church of Jesus Christ. Once again, the text Fackre uses has no relevance to salvation after death.
Source: http://www.equip.org/article/is-there-s ... ter-death/


So here we see Ronald Nash use the typical "the other sheep were gentiles / Jews" (really you'll hear both sides) argument that most works salvationists do. This of course doesn't even deal with salvation after death (as the "other sheep" are unbelieving believers, potentially). There are many different terms for "sheep" and "other sheep" have nothing to do with the gentiles or the 'lost sheep of Israel', because... sheep are specifically believers (Matthew 25:33, John 10:27). Really... this just affirms permanent salvation, but not the issue of salvation for the unbeliever after death. So while Nash's argument was 'right' in that it did nothing to offer anything for salvation for unbelievers after death, he got the context wrong and attributes works salvation.

gotquestions.org wrote:
While the idea of a second chance for salvation is appealing, the Bible is clear that death is the end of all chances. Hebrews 9:27 tells us that we die, and then face judgment. So, as long as a person is alive, he has a second, third, fourth, fifth, etc. chance to accept Christ and be saved (John 3:16; Romans 10:9-10; Acts 16:31). Once a person dies, there are no more chances.
Source: http://www.gotquestions.org/second-chan ... ation.html

Yes we all will face judgement, but as I've previously said, what if God's repayment for those who were wronged *requires* them to believe on the bema to receive it?
None of the verses "John 3:16 / Romans 10:9-10 / Acts 16:31" have anything to do salvation after death for the unbeliever. And then notice they say "once a person dies, there are no more chances".... but they didn't quote any verses. Great.

gotquestions.org wrote:
What about those who do not believe? Wouldn’t they repent and believe if they were given a second chance? The answer is no, they would not because their hearts are not changed simply because they die. Their hearts and minds “are at enmity” against God and won’t accept Him even when they see Him face to face. This is evidenced clearly in the story of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31. If ever someone should have repented when given a second chance to see clearly the truth, it was the rich man. But although he was in torment in hell, he only asked that Abraham send Lazarus back to earth to warn his brothers so they didn’t have to suffer the same fate. There was no repentance in his heart, only regret for where he found himself.
Source: http://www.gotquestions.org/second-chan ... ation.html

Unlike Mr. Nash, gotquestions is a bit closer to the mark with interpreting Luke 16 (but they make the error of using "repent" instead of MIND CHANGE, and of course all other religious phraseology follows with "heart" etc). There's no verses that state no one will change their mind after death, so again they present us with nothing.

I'll leave it at that. A lot of sites talking about salvation after death for unbelievers are so anemic and contradictory. And some of the people who [do] support this view misquote verses and confuse them with eternal security ones... WHICH AGAIN, have nothing to do with an unbeliever.


Last edited by hupostasis on 15 Oct 2015, 04:38, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 15 Oct 2015, 04:33 
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What about Mark 4?
Quote:
11“To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables, 12so that WHILE SEEING, THEY MAY SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE, AND WHILE HEARING, THEY MAY HEAR AND NOT UNDERSTAND, OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT RETURN AND BE FORGIVEN.”


Why would God not want someone to understand and be forgiven?

It does say that God is not willing for any to parish, but who is God talking about? Any of the world? The called? The elect?

You can argue that He means the elect, since the Church Age has dragged on for so long, and 2 Peter 3:9 is talking about accusations of slackness.

Personally, I don't believe in deadline salvation either, but how can 2 Peter 3:9 and Mark 4:12 be reconciled?

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PostPosted: 15 Oct 2015, 05:12 
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Anonynomemon wrote:
What about Mark 4?
Quote:
11“To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables, 12so that WHILE SEEING, THEY MAY SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE, AND WHILE HEARING, THEY MAY HEAR AND NOT UNDERSTAND, OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT RETURN AND BE FORGIVEN.”


Why would God not want someone to understand and be forgiven?

It does say that God is not willing for any to parish, but who is God talking about? Any of the world? The called? The elect?

You can argue that He means the elect, since the Church Age has dragged on for so long, and 2 Peter 3:9 is talking about accusations of slackness.

Personally, I don't believe in deadline salvation either, but how can 2 Peter 3:9 and Mark 4:12 be reconciled?


You'll have to excuse the forum issue-- my article was posted in a premature state, so there's more content now...

The translation of Mark 4 is a bit... off (lots of extra junk added in). The reason why they weren't hearing / seeing / understanding is due to the fact they were unfilled. It didn't have anything to do with (God) wanting it:

Quote:
Mark 4:11 And he said to them: to you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but to them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
Mark 4:11 καὶ ἔλεγεν αὐτοῖς· ὑμῖν τὸ μυστήριον δέδοται τῆς βασιλείας τοῦ θεοῦ· ἐκείνοις δὲ τοῖς ἔξω ἐν παραβολαῖς τὰ πάντα γίνεται,
Mark 4:12 That seeing see, and not see; and hearing hear and not understand; in case returning, and forgive him
Mark 4:12 ἵνα βλέποντες βλέπωσιν καὶ μὴ ἴδωσιν, καὶ ἀκούοντες ἀκούωσιν καὶ μὴ συνιῶσιν, μήποτε ἐπιστρέψωσιν καὶ ἀφεθῇ αὐτοῖς.


I have attempted to translate it more literally.
If you search up the word "ἀφεθῇ" in other verses (such as Matthew 24:2 / Mark 13:2) it's used in a different way. I almost wanted to read it as someone who "lets go" of himself, in the sense of removing their mind lock. But it's getting late and I'm not supposed to be doing extensive Bible study this week. It's not the usual word for "forgive".

At any rate I hope you can 'see' what the meanings are easier. They're *seeing* but they [can't] *see* (Bible Doctrine), they're *hearing* but they can't *interpret* (Bible Doctrine). And as a result of THEM not returning, God can't do anything about it. So... parables it is! Since they wouldn't understand it if He told them plainly; it doesn't make a difference and He may as well just say the parable. I am reminded of Matthew 7:6 with the pearls and swine.

The KJV (and all of the translations that mimic it) add a fairly horrible calvinstic bias. God never plays "mind control" with people like that, always in favour of giving people the most freedom they can possibly have (sure there's scenarios like Nebuchadnezzar being turned into a wild animal which would restrict your freedom: but as a result of that he got more freedom from it...)

Regarding 2 Peter 3:9, take a look at this!
Quote:
2Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is patient towards us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to mind change.
2 Peter 3:9 οὐ βραδύνει κύριος τῆς ἐπαγγελίας, ὥς τινες βραδύτητα ἡγοῦνται, ἀλλὰ μακροθυμεῖ εἰς ὑμᾶς, μὴ βουλόμενός τινας ἀπολέσθαι ἀλλὰ πάντας εἰς μετάνοιαν χωρῆσαι.
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2 Peter 3:10 Ἥξει δὲ ἡμέρα κυρίου ὡς κλέπτης, ἐν ᾗ οἱ οὐρανοὶ ῥοιζηδὸν παρελεύσονται στοιχεῖα δὲ καυσούμενα λυθήσεται καὶ γῆ καὶ τὰ ἐν αὐτῇ ἔργα εὑρεθήσεται.

It's almost as if it's being linked up to what we were talking about previously with the aborted kings and unbelievers. Here we have the works being "burned" up again by the fire. Perhaps some of it referring both to aborted kings and unbelievers at the same time, again... thanks for bringing it up, this is another verse alongside Paul's "yet as so by fire". However it has the additional phrase "not willing any should perish" (μὴ βουλόμενός τινας ἀπολέσθαι)
The Greek word "ἀπολέσθαι" is rather strong and associated to death, and believers wouldn't be affixed with that term. So God is not willing any should die, would be a better translation. BUT, let's say that "death" was also a bible doctrine death for the aborted kings, then it starts to mean much more.
The "second death" for the unbeliever
The "doctrine death" for the aborted king

It's possible it could be referring to both and not just the unbeliever.


Last edited by hupostasis on 15 Oct 2015, 05:18, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 15 Oct 2015, 05:18 
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Edited

I can't find anything to indicate that salvation has a deadline, which is a relief. I'm not sure that means any post bema unbelievers will ever choose to believe, but then again; why would God keep the Lake of Fire around unless He knew that atleast some would believe at some point in Eternity?

Maybe in the end, all will be saved. That would be nice.

_________________
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The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


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PostPosted: 15 Oct 2015, 05:26 
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Anonynomemon wrote:
Why wouldn't God want an aborted king to believe again? I suppose so that the fruit producing king can recieve extra payment???

Anyways. I can't find anything to indicate that salvation has a deadline, which is a relief. I'm not sure that means any post bema unbelievers will ever choose to believe, but then again; why would God keep the Lake of Fire around unless He knew that atleast some would believe at some point in Eternity?

Maybe in the end, all will be saved. That would be nice.


You'll have to let me know where you think it's showing God wouldn't want an aborted king to believe (Mark 4:12 is that the people there are not believing and unfilled, doesn't have anything to do with God being the 'cause' of it--even though the King James Bible would make it seem so).

The goal for everyone (and especially believers) is to do EPIGNOSIS all the time:
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith believing without [divine] works is dead also.
Otherwise you're a... christian zombie, 'alive' but dead (Romans 10:2)

THEORETICALLY given an eternity that could be possible. But if you read in Revelation, some people have their mind locked SO HARD that they try *killing* themselves rather than believing. And they keep on worshiping physical material with physical actions even when stricken with all of the stuff that goes down (plagues etc). The same reason why satan will probably never 'mind change' (the salvation package of angels is a completely different worm hole).


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PostPosted: 15 Oct 2015, 05:32 
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Quote:
It's almost as if it's being linked up to what we were talking about previously with the aborted kings and unbelievers. Here we have the works being "burned" up again by the fire.


It's funny that you should mention that. I was just thinking that these Bema events always seem to be associated with resurrections: Rapture, Resurrection of Israel, Final Resurrection, Second Death. The only one that I can't seem to nail to a Bema judgement of works is the Resurrection of Israel at the Second Advent, but then again I haven't done much digging. I was thinking about opening a thread on the subject, but not tonight. Like you said its too late. Maybe this weekend.

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PostPosted: 15 Oct 2015, 05:37 
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You'll have to let me know where you think it's showing God wouldn't want an aborted king to believe (Mark 4:12 is that the people there are not believing and unfilled, doesn't have anything to do with God being the 'cause' of it--even though the King James Bible would make it seem so).


No, you're probably right. I posted that before I took the time to read through your reply completely, so it was based on the faulty translation.

Yeah Angel salvation...I got a thread planned for that one too. :lightbulb:

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PostPosted: 17 Oct 2015, 07:30 
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What about Rev 4 and the Baptism of Fire? I can't prove that Rev4 includes resurrected Israel, and the general convention is that Israel is resurrected at 2nd Advent, Eze 37-40. Baptism of Fire is in there, but also referred to by the Lord (again according to conventional interpretation), in Matt. 24:40f; Lk. 17:34ff.

Just thinking out loud, yet these verses are also in a resurrection context, no?


Anonynomemon wrote:
Quote:
It's almost as if it's being linked up to what we were talking about previously with the aborted kings and unbelievers. Here we have the works being "burned" up again by the fire.


It's funny that you should mention that. I was just thinking that these Bema events always seem to be associated with resurrections: Rapture, Resurrection of Israel, Final Resurrection, Second Death. The only one that I can't seem to nail to a Bema judgement of works is the Resurrection of Israel at the Second Advent, but then again I haven't done much digging. I was thinking about opening a thread on the subject, but not tonight. Like you said its too late. Maybe this weekend.


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PostPosted: 17 Oct 2015, 17:39 
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@ Brainout
Quote:
What about Rev 4 and the Baptism of Fire?


Yes, the Baptism of Fire is exactly what I was thinking too, but it seems to be a judgement upon the earth, not necessarily a judgement of Israel's works. But then again, check out Daniel 9...
Quote:
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.


The Day of the Lord definitely brings an end to Israel's sin (via Resurrection per Ezek 37-40), but there is no obvious mention of works being judged (as in bema). So it makes sense that the Baptism of Fire coincides with a bema judgement, but I can't prove it yet.

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PostPosted: 17 Oct 2015, 20:45 
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@Anonynomemon

Try starting at Ezekiel 37, the chapter everyone misreads as being Israel's start in 1948. It's not. Rather, it's about RESURRECTED BELIEVERS. I'm betting it's metered, but no time yet to see. Ezekiel was, along with Jeremiah, 'hired' to lay out the seige for the exiles from the first deportation. I don't know what time period elapsed between his Chapters 1 et seq (which were in 592 BC, part of second deportation), and the start of Chapter 37, but the latter will have a metered dateline.

Daniel 9:24-27 might be a reply to it? Dan9:24-27 is 231 syllables, pattern here. That pdf is only a few pages, Hebrew text with footnotes, so you can easily count the syllables. Took me an hour+ to make a video on Dan9:24, wherein I screwed up but got the meter right by the end, here. Video of course can be skipped.

Daniel's meter very clearly is the basis for God's numbers in the text (as well as metered) answer in Dan9:24-27, so it makes sense that Ezekiel metered his text, too.

Paul and Mary play on the Dan9:24-27 count of 231, with Mary removing 14 in the Magnificat, and Paul using the 231 for his anaphora in Eph 1:3-14; but these are too complex to explain right now. Point is, the meter is deliberate, so your search might be well met in Ezekiel 37 et seq.


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PostPosted: 17 Oct 2015, 23:45 
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@ Brainout

Well, there's no question in my mind that Ezek 37 is about the very end of the Trib. I don't buy that 1948 political junk.

What I really hope to find are these answers:

>Is Israel's Bema linked to the Baptism of Fire? If not, is the Baptism of Fire a sort of Bema at all? For the world?

>If the common theme continues, it seems that Fire always judges works. Does that mean water judges sin? Why else would the Second Advent mirror Noah's flood so heavily?

>If the Baptism of Fire does mirror Noah's flood, the does that mean the destruction of the Heavens and Earth (by fire) mirrors the flooding of Heavens and Earth before the 6 Day Restoration?

Im not looking for all the answers from you, but this just gives you an idea of what's on my mind. More loaded questions than answers, as usual, lol.

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PostPosted: 17 Oct 2015, 23:59 
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Okay, running with what you wrote, Anonynomemon...

If water judges sin and Noah is prototype of Christ, seed of humanity in him and delivered, then water drowns/washes sin, Christ paid on Cross, Water of the Word washes us of human/sinful thinking. So not judgment but Rx.

Fire parallel would be on what's left, which is works. Nothing useful there, so burning is the only way to get rid of it. Burning trash, so it won't infect. Burning doo-doo, same reason.

Resurrection would be a separate matter, the thing/person saved is separated from the first two.

God promised He'd never again flood, so fire not flood ends; if a mirror to tohu wa bohu in Gen 1 as explained in Isa 45:18-19, that would also be a separate matter, as wouldn't both deal with the Angelic Conflict outcome, 2 Peter 3 and Rev 20ff?

So now the key question to your search: where is Israel in all this? Lumped as part of the believer group versus unbeliever group, or separately handled? Seems like Eze37ff show a separateness, 11 whole chapters on the Mill?

Again, just thinking out loud in an attempt to mimic your flow, see where that leads. Now my brain just ran out. :)


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PostPosted: 19 Oct 2015, 17:15 
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So now the key question to your search: where is Israel in all this?


Israe was supposed to be Bride right? So wouldn't Resurrected Israel also serve as King-priests within the Land? Church will be resurrected and Israel will be resurrected, so I suppose that leaves tribulation geniles believers as unresurrected Millennial citizens. The next question I suppose is, if both Israel and Church are Resurrected King-priests, then who ministers to what group?

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PostPosted: 19 Oct 2015, 19:43 
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Anonynomemon wrote:
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So now the key question to your search: where is Israel in all this?


Israe was supposed to be Bride right? So wouldn't Resurrected Israel also serve as King-priests within the Land? Church will be resurrected and Israel will be resurrected, so I suppose that leaves tribulation geniles believers as unresurrected Millennial citizens. The next question I suppose is, if both Israel and Church are Resurrected King-priests, then who ministers to what group?


Yes, Israel was supposed to be Bride. Many OT verses on that. Trouble is, when Groom came she rejected, so Matt 16-25 explains the change. Israel having played Vashti, Church is sought as Esther so (Matt 22) Israel is invited to the Wedding, not in it.

However, anyone who believes in Christ is part of Church, the distinction between Gentile and Jew is erased, theme of Galatians, esp. Gal 3 and Romans 9-11. So the distinction of Jew and Gentile resumed during the Trib and Mill, with some alive at 2nd Advent, means that nations need rulers so Israel can have peace from her enemies. It's my understanding of Rev 1:6 and 5:10 so far, that Church kings will be ruling those goyim nations during Mill, and whatever are their own Bema-assigned eternal kingdoms then and later. Collectively as Bride of Christ.

Christ Himself rules Israel, presumably over the OT resurrected matured who have analogous kingly roles, and also presumably Israel in her initially-promised landmass expanse, which if I recall properly incorporates all of Anatolia down to what, the third cataract of the Nile, all of Saudi peninsula, etc? Whatever was the landgrant of the Abrahamic covenant, that will be 'Israel' then. And it will become very good land, not the desert of today.

Since kings need entourages, and since there will be a form of worship on the Jewish model, you got Ezekiel's description. Seems like no one in Church is involved in the spiritual structure as priests to people, since the model is Jewish. Our role as priests is in the eternal state. But right now I'm just talking off the top of my head.

If correct as stated, then the Jews would be the ones carrying on the spiritual edification functions, for the Mill. So the OT resurrected Jews who don't have rewards would presumably have something to do, especially those from the priestly tribe of Levi, and the then-alive Jews depending on their tribe would have functions, too.

Church would be civil. Evidence of Him just the same, but in a civil capacity.

Of course, everything just said is subject to change, correction, etc.


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PostPosted: 20 Oct 2015, 03:30 
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brainout wrote:
Anonynomemon wrote:
Quote:
So now the key question to your search: where is Israel in all this?


Israe was supposed to be Bride right? So wouldn't Resurrected Israel also serve as King-priests within the Land? Church will be resurrected and Israel will be resurrected, so I suppose that leaves tribulation geniles believers as unresurrected Millennial citizens. The next question I suppose is, if both Israel and Church are Resurrected King-priests, then who ministers to what group?


Yes, Israel was supposed to be Bride. Many OT verses on that. Trouble is, when Groom came she rejected, so Matt 16-25 explains the change. Israel having played Vashti, Church is sought as Esther so (Matt 22) Israel is invited to the Wedding, not in it.

However, anyone who believes in Christ is part of Church, the distinction between Gentile and Jew is erased, theme of Galatians, esp. Gal 3 and Romans 9-11. So the distinction of Jew and Gentile resumed during the Trib and Mill, with some alive at 2nd Advent, means that nations need rulers so Israel can have peace from her enemies. It's my understanding of Rev 1:6 and 5:10 so far, that Church kings will be ruling those goyim nations during Mill, and whatever are their own Bema-assigned eternal kingdoms then and later. Collectively as Bride of Christ.

Christ Himself rules Israel, presumably over the OT resurrected matured who have analogous kingly roles, and also presumably Israel in her initially-promised landmass expanse, which if I recall properly incorporates all of Anatolia down to what, the third cataract of the Nile, all of Saudi peninsula, etc? Whatever was the landgrant of the Abrahamic covenant, that will be 'Israel' then. And it will become very good land, not the desert of today.

Since kings need entourages, and since there will be a form of worship on the Jewish model, you got Ezekiel's description. Seems like no one in Church is involved in the spiritual structure as priests to people, since the model is Jewish. Our role as priests is in the eternal state. But right now I'm just talking off the top of my head.

If correct as stated, then the Jews would be the ones carrying on the spiritual edification functions, for the Mill. So the OT resurrected Jews who don't have rewards would presumably have something to do, especially those from the priestly tribe of Levi, and the then-alive Jews depending on their tribe would have functions, too.

Church would be civil. Evidence of Him just the same, but in a civil capacity.

Of course, everything just said is subject to change, correction, etc.

I created a thread geared towards this subject if you're interested. It's kind of all over the place, because I'm organizing my thoughts as I progress.
viewtopic.php?f=54&t=359&p=814#p814

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PostPosted: 06 May 2016, 01:28 
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This thought just popped in my mind today at work.

Christ paid the debt of all sins. In order for the debt to be paid in full, the number of sins must be FINITE.

Eternity is NOT FINITE. Therefore, if there is NO DEADLINE on salvation, then there must be some point in Eternity when all non-believers will be saved...Satan included.

For God is not willing that any should perish, so maybe He created us knowing that everyone would eventually believe.


Edit:

This would pose a major contradiction since Rev 20:10 states the following:

Quote:
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


Unless aionas ton aionon does not (always) mean Eternity?

Thoughts, please?

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PostPosted: 06 May 2016, 03:38 
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What if αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων (ages of the ages) does not mean 'forever and ever' at all? What if it is a reference to Psalm 90:15???

Quote:
מְּחֵנוּ כִּימֹ֣ות עִנִּיתָ֑נוּ נֹ֗ות רָאִ֥ינוּ רָעָֽה׃
Gladden us per the days you burdened us;
per the same years we've seen evil


This might give a new meaning to Galtians 1:5
Quote:
to whom is the glory to the ages of the ages. Amen.

Of course, God receives Glory for all Eternity, but what specific Glory is God receiving in Gal 1:5?
Quote:
Gal 1:4 who gave Himself for our sins so that He might rescue us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father



Look at 1 Peter 5

Quote:
10 After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you 11 to Him is the glory, and the power -- to the ages and the ages! Amen.


Maybe εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας· ἀμήν should be translated "for the ages of the ages" as it is in Rev 20:10, instead of "to the ages of the ages".

PLEASE LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU THINK. I NEED HELP FROM SOMEONE WHO KNOWS MORE GREEK THAN I DO.

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PostPosted: 06 May 2016, 07:17 
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Okay, well aiwn meaning depends on context. Plural is almost always 'forever', like in Rom 1:25. Singular usually means a dispensational period (though remember Dispensations in Bible aren't like the 'scholars', but the 2100's). So there's that to examine.

More importantly, Christ could pay for all sins on the Cross even if they never cease, since in hell folks keep on sinning, and so too in the Lake of Fire. In finance, we call that an 'annuity' where you pay a single up-front lump sum that keeps on generating INCOME, which then PAYS forever. THAT is what I think the Cross accomplished. So sin CAN go on forever.

That's what I do for a living, calculate what DEPOSITS need to be made for ONGOING INCOME in pension plans. For humans, it's a finite calculation; but a deposit invested that never is touched (principal is never reduced) -- can generate income forever.

For there's also the opportunity cost (economic term) of all the SHORTFALL in Romans 3:23. Part of the cost of sin, is the LIMITATION on soul growth, which of course lasts forever, too.

So God builds FACTORIES from His Son; for yes, the total number of SOULS (angelic and human) are FINITE. We are DIVIDENDS of Him, so the noble deposit (Thieme's translation of 2Tim1:14, meaning MD) can go into our heads.. now, and in eternity. So think: a deposit INVESTED, yields income. Christ paid the WHOLE THING, and as a result we can even GET His Thinking. Which, initially are DIVIDENDS INVESTED, resulting in more income.. forever. Just like Christ said in John 19:30, tetelestai -- as you'll hear Thieme translate, 'Finished in the past with results that go on forever', aka perfect tense.

So the whole point of living post-salvation, is to get that 'noble deposit' (kalos paratheke, 2Tim1:14, Thieme translation), of His Thinking, which produces mini- 'Christ in you, the confidence of glory.' All life is about getting saved then getting Doctrine to live in your head, X+Y+Z, so in Z, we are 'factories' of pleasing 'smell' of His Thinking, real worship, Romans 12:1's logiken latreian. THINKING, not body stuff. Wrong thinking=wrong action, anyhow.

In finance, it's called 'present value'. A sum NOW which will be INVESTED and as a result will keep on growing and produce income. When you buy a 'lump sum annuity', that's why what you pay is so much less than what it will produce: the insurance company will be making money ON that lump sum you pay, enough to profit and pay you the annuity, too. That's what I think happened at the Cross, because of the terminology in Isaiah 53:12 'wa yehalleq shalal' (sorry, I can't type with Hebrew letters on this computer).

We can see the proof of this in our own lives, even with a simple Faith Rest. In the past, some Bible verse 'got deposited' in your soul, you believed it; later on, you recall it over and over and LIVE ON its promise. The deposit, might have only occurred once, but the 'income' occurs every time you recall (John 14:26) and USE it to keep going. Isaiah 54:1, Neh 8:10, etc.

Else the whole Bible makes no sense, for God must be paid for all sin, and that means the entire cost of creation, in heaven or hell, including angels (fallen angels still sin), etc.


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PostPosted: 06 May 2016, 11:55 
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Ok. I can see a lump sum payment generating income for Eternity, but wouldn't Jesus have to pay an infinitely large lump sum as an infinite number of sins are imputed to Him on the cross. That seems to create a Time Paradox. How could He say, "it is finished", when sins will be produced in Eternity without ceasing???

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PostPosted: 06 May 2016, 23:31 
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The VALUE of ONE thought versus the small value of a sin thought... think about that.

In finance, it's called 'leverage'. A small thing being made to do a BIG job, and Hebrews 2:10 is your chapter on how the sins COMPLETED His Own Soul's Growth. Thieme spent a lot of time on the mistranslated 'perfected' (teleiow; really, it's not a mistranslation, for in legal English it means to complete a contract, which is Isaiah 53:10-11).

For now I 'get it' why we aren't all obliterated post-Cross. DIVIDENDS.


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PostPosted: 07 May 2016, 01:55 
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I get that thought value might be more than enough to cover all sins, but wasn't Christ judged for EACH individual personal sin (plus original sin). So maybe thoughts could pay the whole, but each sin still must be accounted for. If endless supply of sin to document and judge, then how can it be finished. I just can't wrap my mind around that without producing a time paradox.

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PostPosted: 07 May 2016, 02:11 
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Well, you convert to VALUE. Yes, paying for each individual sin, but what is the PRICE? It has a value. So His counterthinking on the Cross (b'daato yatsdiq , tzadik AVDI l'rabbim, Isa 53:11) has a VALUE because it's HIS thought. Kinda like a minute of a CEO's time is paid/worth more than a minute of the guy moving boxes in the warehouse.

Ponder that, see if it helps.

Let me put it another way: I can spend five minutes saving a client $300,000 in taxes. I've become so skilled over time, that's all it takes me to do that job well. Yet it also costs me five minutes to load the dishwasher, which pays/buys, nearly nothing.


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PostPosted: 07 May 2016, 03:30 
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I agree that Christ's payment was an annuity, and that His thoughts hold more value than the sins themselves. Therefore the change goes into Escrow. Cost of sins is something that Father determines.

What concerns me is, what would Jesus' receipt of payment look like? Every time Satan accuses us of any given sin, or when we use 1John1:9, we are citing a sin on a receipt. If people go on sinning FOREVER, then that receipt is constantly being update. Regardless of cost, how could an ONGOING and INFINITE number of sins be IMPUTED to Christ on the cross, if IT IS FINISHED. I can't make sense of it. You can say that Time and Eternity are different, but they both still pass one day at a time.

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PostPosted: 07 May 2016, 04:26 
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Okay, let's try one more time. A HUGE PAYMENT IN THE PAST keeps on earning an income to pay CURRENT EXPENSES. The sins, occur future of the time paid, so that past payment also earned its own money too. So when in the future some expense is charged against the income, the remainder is still way bigger than the charge. So the charges can keep on going forever.

We in heaven won't sin in eternity, but of course those now in hell and in Lake of Fire, still will.

Does this help?


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PostPosted: 07 May 2016, 04:41 
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I'm afraid it doesn't help.

Its not the actual cost and payment that I don't understand. Its the imputation of unlimited sins to a finite point in history that I cant understand. It suggests that new sins from (eternity-future) will continuously be imputed to the cross back in 30 AD. If there where a FINITE number of sins, then I could see the work being finished, but with an INFINITE number of sins comes an INFINITE number of IMPUTATIONS.

If you feel like I'm thinking in circles, then don't feel like you need to explain any further. Whatever it is that I am misunderstanding, I'm sure God will show me the answer when the time is right. Sorry if I am missing your point.

Thanks for explaining the annuity though. I never thought of it that way.

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PostPosted: 07 May 2016, 05:49 
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Okay, well the annuity analogy is how it SOLVES. A capital base untouched gives off an income. So the key is, will that INCOME be enough to last.. here, forever? So the sins foreknown, have a certain EXPENSE value, but so too, the INCOME on the CAPITAL Christ 'deposited' while on the Cross IN THE PAST.

So really, it's very simple: God is Omnisicient, VALUES THE COST of ongoing sins, VALUES THE CAPITAL Christ pays, and says the latter is ENOUGH. It's His call on the VALUE to HIM.

Christ's thinking is Priceless, Isaiah 55:8-9. So all sin whenever it keeps occurring, is less. We are getting deposits of His Thinking forever, so our capital bases grow too, and that offsets the VALUE of the sins ENOUGH in God's RULING.

So He converted the VALUE of the negativity, the VALUE of Christ's thinking FOR ALL TIME, Hebrews 10:14. It's the VALUE CONVERSION, not the iteration of the occurrences, that makes it work.

Remember when you were doing the meter for Matt 24? YOU experienced it only for the time you did it. GOD experienced it forever and will KEEP ON experiencing it. Worth BILLIONS, even commercially. So how much more, to God?


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PostPosted: 07 May 2016, 06:01 
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Quote:
So He converted the VALUE of the negativity, the VALUE of Christ's thinking FOR ALL TIME, Hebrews 10:14. It's the VALUE CONVERSION,not the iteration of the occurrences, that makes it work.


So are you saying that Father imputed the Negative Value of sins, rather than the actual sins to Christ? :scratchead:

Quote:
2Cor 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.


I guess that could work if you define sin in the generic sense of "missing the mark"....but I always thought it was the iteration of occurrence that was important, since we are commanded to cite our known sins in 1John 1:9.

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PostPosted: 07 May 2016, 06:13 
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Sorta. He converted the sins, into a VALUE; that's what makes for the PAYMENT calculation.

Think of the difference between barter and a money economy. This computer cost me $200. It's really the computer, but VALUED between buyer and seller, so it is really PURCHASED. I bought it with money, not in trade goods. But the imputation is real enough. IT COST. How I paid for it and got it, could have been handled differently, but it's a real purchase, and I have the real Dell 6410 laptop.

Where you're hung up is, you think of the sins occurring forever, but the payment is for the PERSON, and like a capital base the PERSON's sins have a 'present value' to be paid. That then is imputed to Christ, and the VALUE of His Counterthinking bought 'you', me, everyone (and I bet, all the angels too). THAT is a finite number of PERSONS so the cost can be paid though the thoughts go on forever.

So that's like a bank account. Each PERSON's thoughts are 'dividends' from the soul; the soul, is the bank account. Thoughts good, bad, high, low -- yield on investment. Christ paid for the whole investment, so the PERSON is free to exist and be whatever he will be, heaven or hell, mature or immature, etc.

So: pretend tomorrow you inherited a BILLION dollars. Pretend further, like in Matt 25, that every DAY that billion doubles. You cannot outspend it, no matter what you do.

Now let's talk infinity. That's God's NATURE. It's a stasis (think of the math). An equilibrium. Progression WITHIN, but as a SYSTEM, it's a stasis, like a capital base. Christ is ALWAYS on the Cross, to Omniscience. So His Payment is always Matt4:4, always occurring, so every future sin WHEN it occurs, has already been paid for.

Does this help?


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PostPosted: 07 May 2016, 15:28 
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Yes. That does help. Sorry for bing such a pain in the neck. Sometimes it takes a lot for certain ideas to sink in.

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PostPosted: 07 May 2016, 16:50 
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You're not a pain in the neck. The same questions used to plague me, too.


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