FrankForum (Frankness IS Forum)

No ads, no mods, Frankly Anonymous (you can join w/fake name/email, are not tracked)!
It is currently 19 Jul 2019, 02:21

All times are UTC


Forum rules


Extra Smileys: http://forums.mydigitallife.info/misc.p ... _Editor_QR

Not moderated, so you are on your own. Spambots, stalkers and anti-semites will be banned without notice. Else, POLICE YOURSELF.



Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 5 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: 05 Nov 2015, 07:26 
User avatar

Joined: 14 Sep 2015, 13:11
Posts: 383
I'm sure the trio of verses where Christ says it's easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye than a rich man going into heaven have been used to counter grace and support the notion that something is needed for salvation... such as "genuine repentance", "surrendering your life to Jesus", "forcing yourself of your own works to stop sinning" etc. I thought I'd go through them since these came up for other reasons-- but explaining how they're NOT inferring that the rich don't get into heaven is the first item on the list. The tie-ins to other doctrines and the modifications are what is far more interesting, however.
Note: as usual, the KJV adds extra English words that makes the Greek sometimes inconsistent (like Luke 18:25 and Mark 10:25 both have the same starting Greek word, but the same English words are not used when they should be... therefore the verses are translated differently, words in brackets are only added so it reads better.
Quote:
Matthew 19:24 And again (I) say (to) you: (it is) easier a camel (to go) through eye needle, than rich (man) enter into the kingdom of God.
Matthew 19:24 πάλιν δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, εὐκοπώτερόν ἐστιν κάμηλον διὰ τρυπήματος ῥαφίδος διελθεῖν ἢ πλούσιον εἰσελθεῖν εἰς τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ θεοῦ.
---
Luke 18:25 (it is) Easier for a camel (to go) through eye needle, than rich (man) enter into the kingdom of God.
Luke 18:25 εὐκοπώτερον γάρ ἐστιν κάμηλον διὰ τρήματος βελόνης εἰσελθεῖν ἢ πλούσιον εἰς τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ θεοῦ εἰσελθεῖν.
---
Mark 10:25 (it is) Easier a camel (to go) through the eye of the needle, than rich (man) enter into the kingdom of God.
Mark 10:25 εὐκοπώτερόν ἐστιν κάμηλον διὰ [τῆς] τρυμαλιᾶς [τῆς] ῥαφίδος διελθεῖν, ἢ πλούσιον εἰς τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ θεοῦ εἰσελθεῖν.


Going on the 'aim' of the three gospels, I'm going to assume that the behaviour for the passages will be such:
  • Matthew is the 'starting point'
  • Luke upgrades the information for the church age
  • Mark adds specific stress? Perhaps attempting to tie ends on both Matthew and Luke
I suppose the exact nature of what's going on will become more apparent once the full passages are analyzed for the real time changes. But we can consider that as a guide to make more sense of the changes.

So going by the original Matthew rendition-- there is actually something hilarious that I didn't see before. Jesus is being *extremely* rhetorical, and you don't catch it unless you pay attention to what the ruler is asking Christ:
Quote:
NIV Matthew 19:16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"
BGT Matthew 19:16 Καὶ ἰδοὺ εἷς προσελθὼν αὐτῷ εἶπεν· διδάσκαλε, τί ἀγαθὸν ποιήσω ἵνα σχῶ ζωὴν αἰώνιον;
---
NIV Matthew 19:17 "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments."
BGT Matthew 19:17 ὁ δὲ εἶπεν αὐτῷ· τί με ἐρωτᾷς περὶ τοῦ ἀγαθοῦ; εἷς ἐστιν ὁ ἀγαθός· εἰ δὲ θέλεις εἰς τὴν ζωὴν εἰσελθεῖν, τήρησον τὰς ἐντολάς.


Catch it? The ruler asked Christ what *good thing* needs to be done to get *eternal* life. Obviously that's an invalid question since there [is] nothing good that can be done except believing. Christ responds with there is only ONE who is "good" (without blemish), and that if you want to enter *life* (not *eternal* life) to keep the commandments, re: bible doctrine via epignosis! So Christ's response is TELEIOS, give to the poor blah blah blah-- but of course the point is to change your mental attitude for B.D., not to focus on the wealth-- because if you're focusing on the wealth you're not focusing on bible doctrine.
This is evident when Christ says he'll have inheritances (treasure in heaven) by fixing his mental attitude which would lead to an increase in Bible Doctrine:
Quote:
NIV Matthew 19:21 Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect mature, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
BGT Matthew 19:21 ἔφη αὐτῷ ὁ Ἰησοῦς· εἰ θέλεις τέλειος εἶναι, ὕπαγε πώλησόν σου τὰ ὑπάρχοντα καὶ δὸς [τοῖς] πτωχοῖς, καὶ ἕξεις θησαυρὸν ἐν οὐρανοῖς, καὶ δεῦρο ἀκολούθει μοι.

Note that Christ does not say sell your possessions and then you will have eternal life. Instead it's mentioning the treasure (inheritances).

And then this is where we come back to the famous phrase:
Quote:
NIV Matthew 19:24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."
BGT Matthew 19:24 πάλιν δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, εὐκοπώτερόν ἐστιν κάμηλον διὰ τρυπήματος ῥαφίδος διελθεῖν ἢ πλούσιον εἰσελθεῖν εἰς τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ θεοῦ.

NIV Matthew 19:25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"
BGT Matthew 19:25 ἀκούσαντες δὲ οἱ μαθηταὶ ἐξεπλήσσοντο σφόδρα λέγοντες· τίς ἄρα δύναται σωθῆναι;

NIV Matthew 19:26 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
BGT Matthew 19:26 ἐμβλέψας δὲ ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς· παρὰ ἀνθρώποις τοῦτο ἀδύνατόν ἐστιν, παρὰ δὲ θεῷ πάντα δυνατά.


So the disciples immediately take Christ's exaggeration for salvation, and then Christ's response is "with God all things are possible".

To recap:
#1 the ruler (who obviously had a lot of wealth) asks about receiving *eternal* life
#2 Christ's sarcastic response is that only God is 'good', and then refers to the commands for presumably epignosis
#3 the ruler states he already is doing all of those
#4 Christ responds with to trimming down the physical wealth and "follow him"--for 'treasure in heaven' IMPLYING inheritances and not referring to salvation itself
#5 ruler declines, even though it would only require minor epigosis
#6 Christ exaggerates the situation of having wealth and focusing on that instead of bible doctrine
#7 disciples take it literally for salvation, Christ reminds disciples with God all things are possible (re: grace)

I'm therefore convinced that the ruler asking Christ how to get *eternal* life already had it, he just didn't have a spiritual "life" and therefore no B.D. and as a result no inheritances will ensue.

The LXX seems to use 'ζωὴν' for the equivalent word in Hebrew in Psalm 66:9, which of course deals with the spiritual life POST-SALVATION and not pre-salvation:
Quote:
NIV Psalm 66:9 he has preserved our lives and kept our feet from slipping.
BGT Psalm 65:9 τοῦ θεμένου τὴν ψυχήν μου εἰς ζωὴν καὶ μὴ δόντος εἰς σάλον τοὺς πόδας μου
WTT Psalm 66:9 הַשָּׂ֣ם נַ֭פְשֵׁנוּ בַּֽחַיִּ֑ים וְלֹֽא־נָתַ֖ן לַמּ֣וֹט רַגְלֵֽנוּ׃

Just happened to come across it when searching other terms for it. Since not all "life" is "eternal life". Just as not all "salvations" are "salvation from death".

Unfortunately I lack the time to whip out the other verses and highlight all of what's going on, so that will be for later. However there are some things of note... the identity of the guy asking about eternal life-- his identity is revealed as a "ruler" in Luke exclusively, and Luke also changes it to inherit. Those are very kingship-oriented changes. Oh, and the commandments Christ lists are also reordered and changed. Each one of these changes was done for a specific reason which is fairly insane when you think about it.


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 10 Nov 2015, 07:40 
User avatar

Joined: 25 Aug 2015, 22:51
Posts: 880
@ Hupostasis
That's very interesting indeed. I've always had trouble understanding the interaction between the rich man and Christ. I knew that Christ was being sarcastic in His response, but I never really understood His point. The difference between eternal life vs life just might be the answer. Of course, that would mean the rich man was very spiritually immature, not realizing that he was already saved.

And what about in Mark 10:20 where it says, "Jesus felt a love for Him"? Is that like a sense of pity (or perhaps compassion is a better word)?

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 12 Nov 2015, 07:33 
User avatar

Joined: 14 Sep 2015, 13:11
Posts: 383
Anonynomenon wrote:
@ Hupostasis
That's very interesting indeed. I've always had trouble understanding the interaction between the rich man and Christ. I knew that Christ was being sarcastic in His response, but I never really understood His point. The difference between eternal life vs life just might be the answer. Of course, that would mean the rich man was very spiritually immature, not realizing that he was already saved.

And what about in Mark 10:20 where it says, "Jesus felt a love for Him"? Is that like a sense of pity (or perhaps compassion is a better word)?

That's correct, the ruler didn't realize he was saved, which is why Christ's responses are the way they are. And when he says he's following all of the commandments and everything, Christ quickly shoots it down getting straight to his mentality (sell your riches and give to your subjects if you are to be a ruler in training). What's the point of following commandments if you don't have doctrine? You don't even have the capacity to KNOW why they are to be followed.

It's definitely love since the word used is a morphology of agape, but also:
Quote:
1 John 4:19 We love because he first loved us.
1 John 4:19 ἡμεῖς ἀγαπῶμεν, ὅτι αὐτὸς πρῶτος ἠγάπησεν ἡμᾶς.

So Christ loves us all, regardless if you're the rich ruler or not. As to *why* it's brought up with the rich ruler at point blank I am not sure. We might know once all three variants of the story are put together. I might have time for it tonight.


Last edited by hupostasis on 12 Nov 2015, 08:58, edited 1 time in total.

Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 12 Nov 2015, 08:58 
User avatar

Joined: 14 Sep 2015, 13:11
Posts: 383
Okay, here's the English text compared (just did a crude comparison with some modernized KJV). Due to the sheer amount of time it takes to paste in the Greek, that will be done separately. Consider this just to get the general idea of what's being changed.

Quote:
Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said to him, Good Master, what good thing will I do, that I may have eternal life?
Luke 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what will I do to inherit eternal life?
Mark 10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what will I do that I may inherit eternal life?

Matthew 19:17 And he said to him: Why do you call me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if you will enter into life, keep the commandments.
Luke 18:19 And Jesus said to him: Why do you call me good? none is good, except one, that is, God.
Mark 10:18 And Jesus said to him: Why do you call me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Matthew 19:18-19 He said to Him: Which? Jesus said: you will do no murder, you will not commit adultery, you will not steal, you will not bear false witness, Honour your father and your mother: and, you will love your neighbour as yourself.
Luke 18:20 you know the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour your father and your mother.
Mark 10:19 you know the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour your father and mother.

Matthew 19:20 The young man said to him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Luke 18:21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
Mark 10:20 And he answered and said to him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.

Matthew 19:21 Jesus said to him, If you will be perfect mature, go and sell that you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
Luke 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said to him, yet lack you one thing: sell all that you have, and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
Mark 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said to him, One thing you lack: go your way, sell whatever you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

Matthew 19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
Luke 18:23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.
Mark 10:22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

Matthew 19:23 Then said Jesus to his disciples, truly I say to you, That a rich man will hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Luke 18:24 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly will they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
Mark 10:23 And Jesus looked round about, and said to his disciples, How hardly will they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!


Mark 10:24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answered again, and said to them: sons, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!


Matthew 19:24 And again I say to you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Luke 18:25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Mark 10:25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Matthew 19:25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
Luke 18:26 And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved?
Mark 10:26 And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?

Matthew 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said to them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
Luke 18:27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.
Mark 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them said, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

Matthew 19:27 Then answered Peter and said to him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what will we have therefore?
Luke 18:28 Then Peter said, Lo, we have left all, and followed thee.
Mark 10:28 Then Peter began to say to him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said to them, truly I say to you, That you which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man will sit in the throne of his glory, ye also will sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Luke 18:29 And he said to them, truly I say to you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake,
Mark 10:29 And Jesus answered and said, truly I say to you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,

Matthew 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, will receive an hundredfold, and will inherit everlasting life.
Luke 18:30 Who will not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.
Mark 10:30 But he will receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

Matthew 19:30 But many that are first will be last; and the last will be first.
[Luke omits]
Mark 10:31 But many that are first will be last; and the last first.


I highlighted some of the major differences.


#1 the ruler states 'have' in Matthew versus 'inherit' eternal life in Luke and Mark.
#2 Luke reveals that the the individual coming to Christ was a ruler (which explains his wealth); and this is no coincidence since Luke would be adding to the kingship extension.
#3 Matthew extends Christ's response in verse 17 with "but if you wil enter into LIFE keep the commandments", whereas Luke and Mark omit this bit
#4 the order of the commandments Christ states have a different ordering: not sure (yet) what the ordering changes mean, this will have to be analyzed separately.
#5 Mark changes Christ's response and adds that he 'loved' the ruler (a derivative of agape is used, so it's definitely loved), whereas Matthew and Luke omit this.
#6 Mark 10:24 is added where Christ repeats himself (this "repeat" is omitted from Matthew and Luke).
#7 In Mark 10:26 the context of the disciples talking about it among themselves is given whereas this is omitted in Matthew and Luke
#8 Mark 10:21 adds the "take up the cross", whereas the other two omit it
#9 Matthew 19:29 specifically uses "inherit everlasting life" whereas Luke and Mark do not use this phrase, instead just eternal life.
#10 Luke omits "the first will be last / last first"

At this point it's clear to see how Luke is aiming more with the focus on the new change and the kingship / whereas Mark adds the finalizing touches and makes changes the other two do not.

Now there some parallels with the outer darkness passages (particularly the ending first last / last first). The fact that Luke omits it could be a clue-- since Luke is involved with the changeover, and Mark (which is the final update) adds it back in. I'll have to see if this the same across the board later.


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 12 Nov 2015, 17:55 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 10 Aug 2015, 16:03
Posts: 1831
Okay, I see where you're going. BTW, you don't have to post the Hebrew/Greek, you can just talk about any important keywords you think are relevant to your point. That might save you time.

Secondly, know that Matthew is writing in 30 AD, Luke probably no later than May 58, and Mark in probably Passover 69 (just before Otho dies), when Jerusalem was already surrounded by Titus and Vespasian. The latter would be crowned that December.

So the textual differences might be multiple similar encounters which are concatenated, or additional stuff said which one writer leaves out but another includes, to fit with the historical events of his own period.

For example, the Markan text focuses more on what? THE FORTRESS (eye of the needle gate). Jerusalem was a citadel. It was surrounded. So you had to go through the small entrances hidden from the armies, to get supplies in and out. Nice parallel to heaven, eh what? Book of Hebrews was written some months later, just after Vespasian was crowned, and Jerusalem was then still surrounded, but by son Titus. So now look at the end of Hebrews 10, and smile:

Hebrews 10:35-39 wrote:
Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised. 37 FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY. 38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM. 39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.


Hebrews tracks the outline of Mark. I started the vids on that, but haven't finished them.

Bible writers use meter to date their compositions (and usually the meter agrees with what scholars thought anyway), which I tried to chart here in the first two pages which you can read online, http://www.brainout.net/LukeDatelineMeters.htm . Use 'pdf' if you want download so you'd not need BW fonts.


Report this post
Top
   
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 5 posts ] 

All times are UTC


You can post new topics in this forum
You can reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited