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 Post subject: Three Types Salvation
PostPosted: 10 Nov 2015, 03:19 
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FYI, I'm still thinking of the Outer Darkness topic. Its putative meaning is so big and well presented in that thread, maybe approaching its vetting, requires some roundabout route.

So here, the three types of salvation, though we don't call it that. For you Thiemites, this will be familiar ground but not familiar title.

Salvation I or Juridical Salvation: this is the 'Gospel' everyone often knows, believe in Christ's Payment and you are forever saved, John 3:16, Acts 4:12, 16:31, etc.
  • Technically it saves you from hell and to heaven.
  • It's a juridical issue, whether you should be punished for saying no to Christ's Payment on the Cross.
  • God said yes, but you weren't born or were born but didn't know or died already,
  • so Father's Future/Past Acceptance is only one party in the mediation, Gal 3.
  • You're the other party and the beneficiary, ibid and Hebrews 9.
  • DO YOU AGREE?
  • Yes, I agree to His Payment on my behalf. Okay, you are saved, and it's irreversible, even as time is irreversible and Christ's payment is not reversible, either.
  • No, I don't agree to His Payment on my behalf. Okay, you are still not saved, John 3:16-36.

Salvation II or Soul Salvation: this is what James means when he talks about the 'implanted Word' in James 1. If you didn't believe, then the Word wouldn't have implanted, playing on the Seed Parable.
  • Paul covers it also in Galatians 4, the idea of Christ being born in you. Not, you being born in Christ: that already happened.
  • But His Thinking being born in you requires spiritual maturation via learning and living on Bible under your right teacher, Eph 4, 1Cor1:5 (Greek), 1Cor13.
  • To that extent, then every day your soul is progressively saved from its normal trashed up sin-nature thinking (Eph 5), so you can think more like your 'husband' Christ does. Idea of growing up in a marriage.

Salvation III or Body Salvation, 1 Cor 15 where at death you get a new body, sans sin nature, so you can live in Heaven forever. I think our outer darkness topic centers on this. For we will all get new bodies like His, 1John 2:26-3:2. But what SOUL THINKING will be present, since we don't get new souls?

Now, in this thread I'm not asking for folks to stick to the outer darkness topic running sotto voce in my mind as I type. I'm only starting this thread so it can fork off yet remain maybe related to, the outer darkness topic. For I think maybe these three 'salvations' will elucidate how to read 'outer darkness', since that term is clearly about SALVATION, but.. well, there are three types.

Opine? Elaborate? Brainstorm? Thank you for your time!


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PostPosted: 10 Nov 2015, 04:08 
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@ Brainout

I would call it Trichotomous Salvation:

1) Regeneration of the Human Spirit (born again).
2) Rehabilitation and further development of the soul (Mind of Christ).
3) Resurrection and glorification of the dying flesh (putting on immortality).

It makes sense. Man was created trichotomous, so our salvation would have to be trichotomous.

How does outer darkness related to that? Well as you already know, I believe that the outer darkness refers to the darkness outside the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. Its dark outside from the Day the Lord.

So, my opinion of Outer Darkness is quite literal, and I believe it helps us understand the "Tribulation Sequence"...BUT, what does Outer Darkness imply? Well, its a penalty for believers who learn to hate Christ. They aren't just immature, they hate Christ by turning against fellow believers as seen in Matt 24:45-51.

As RBT would say, these are believes with so much scar tissue that they experience "blackout of the soul". So its quite ironic; those who blackout their souls get to sit in outer darkness.

How does it apply to the Church? I don't know. Believers can still black out their souls as Church Agers, but they are part of the Bride, so they can't be kicked out of the Feast.

A good question is, can you still grow your soul after Resurrection. If no, then wicked servants can learn from outer darkness as they enter the Millennium as sinners. They can still grow. But the Church will be resurrected, so blacked out Church souls may have to spend eternity that way.

So blacked out Church souls can't be kicked out of Feast since they are still part of Bride, but they can't make up for lost time. But believer who are kicked out of the Feast can learn from the experience.


The Wedding Feast Parable seems to make an issue of the quality of Robes. So what do the Robes represent? Are they our souls?

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PostPosted: 10 Nov 2015, 05:41 
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@ Brainout

So continuing with the soul-garment line of thought, it seems that how you think determines what you wear.

Quote:
Luke 15:21“And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight; I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’ 22“But the father said to his slaves, ‘Quickly bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet; 23and bring the fattened calf, kill it, and let us eat and celebrate; 24for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.’


The Parable of the Prodigal Son seems to be about Soul Salvation rather than eternal security. Here the prodigal son confesses his sin to his Father and he is given a robe which is worn by elites. So the principle is, if you depart from Father, you neglect the Mind of Christ and find yourself wearing rags. If you return to Father by abiding in Christ, you are dressed in white long flowing robes.

Now lets look at hypocrisy (the opposite to the Mind of Christ).

Quote:
Luke 20:46“Beware of the scribes, who like to walk around in long robes, and love respectful greetings in the market places, and chief seats in the synagogues and places of honor at banquets, 47who devour widows’ houses, and for appearance’s sake offer long prayers. These will receive greater condemnation.”


Here we see the hypocrite scribes who think so highly of themselves that they wear the royal robes, sit in chief seats and take places of honour at the banquets. I can hear the words ringing in my mind; "last will be first and first will be last".

In the 5th Seal of Revelation, the martyrs are give white robes as well as the Great Multitude who serve the Lamb. It seems consistent that the maturity of your soul determines your heavenly clothing.

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PostPosted: 11 Nov 2015, 06:13 
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Yeah, being clothed with Christ, Gal 3:27. But I'm still not reading 'outer darkness' as you are. Not saying you're wrong, just not sure how far that 'darkness' goes. The only thing I'm sure of is 'far away'. Far away in thinking, therefore in clothing (=living standard), therefore physically far away (seeing Him only at a distance during parades or something, and only briefly).

Yeah, CLOTHING is another metaphoric keyword we need to factor in.

Beyond that, I'm not sure what to say. Sorry, this is a complex issue.

Back to some of your earlier points.

Trichotomous Salvation: okay, but the human spirit doesn't need saving. It's what you get as a result of juridical salvation, so I wanted to line up the apples, hence Salv I-III.

Blacked-out Church souls at the Bema and their future: yeah, in the Feast but not head table. Harem Bride, and we all know that some in the harem were low labor, menial, distant but still considered part of that 'body'. Rev4:1 before Him as a sea of glass, the Bemata, but not all getting top awards. And the souls won't be blacked out at that point, but merely empty, naked.

Thieme often speculated that you can't grow post-death. That's one of maybe three things I disagree with him on, and that only because it's unfair to FATHER that growth be capped. Christ paid for not only our salvation, but for us to be able to become like Him. That's His Prayer in John 17, that we may be one with THEM as THEY are one. Okay, so that means growth continues, as indeed it's the only way to fulfill His Prayer, since oneness can only be progressive.

Alongside this, you might remember Thieme talking about salvation and 'escrow' in the Project X=PPG series (later became called 1985 Ephesians). That too was more speculation. Here, the disagreement centers on Isaiah 53:12, sharing the spoils: Christ sharing out the people booty to the 'great ones', transliterated laken! Ahalleq-lo ba rabbim; w'et atsumim, yihalleq shalal. translated Absolutely! I will give HIM the many, and with the strong ones, HE will share out that spoil.

Paul makes a kind of joke from the LXX of that verse for 'share out' Greek merizw; Paul uses metron merous in Eph 4:16 and Romans 12:3. So the booty of Christ, His Thinking, is shared out in us, and we get shared out in eternity. What goes around, comes around. That would be a pleasing and increasing 'aroma' to Father, da? Nyet?

This is how I get through a day: Isaiah 54:1. Sterile made childbearing, wa ts'hali, lo-hala! Ki rabbim bene shomema, me bene bau-lah! Amar Yehwah..

Children of His Thinking, Matt4:4 always occurring. So that has to mean growth, and that's why today's junk is tomorrow's jewels, to Father. Has to be. Or just shoot me now.

So I'm betting that the 'losers', being rich maybe in good deeds but poor spiritually since they substituted their good deeds for God's Word, will have lower-echelon jobs, and will absorb the 'high life' of those who did mature in God's Word, via relative proximity. Upstairs downstairs.

They in turn will pass on to their peers and those lower, the day's events, and all learn Him better as a result. Just as, children do from parents, and when we actually VALUED classes -- before we all got snotty about status -- the lower classes happily learned from the upper, and vice versa. (That window of objectivity was very brief in each nation, occurring at different historical moments, but it did once exist, our folklore attests to it, witness the popularity of prince/princess love stories in every culture since time began.)


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PostPosted: 11 Nov 2015, 23:02 
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@ Brainout
Well, I think with the 'outer darkness' issue, we need to find the literal interpretation first, then we can see what spiritual principles are applied. Matt 24 (last half) and 25 are very specific about one single event, the Day of the Lord, so I feel it has a very literal answer. If we try using a figurative interpretation first, then we risk overshooting dispensational boundaries.

Not saying your wrong either. It makes sense that spiritually distant believers have a physically distant place in the kingdom, and that is also implied by "outer darkness". But again, what is the primary message? Who is it primarily directed too? Not the Church in my opinion (Church was not supposed to happen).

I would disagree about the human spirit. Thieme taught that our human spirit is dead as a result of Adam's sin. If judicial salvation removes sin, then it removes what kills the spirit. We are born again (of water and SPIRIT-spiritual regeneration) as a direct result of judicial salvation. In my mind, the two go hand in hand.

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PostPosted: 12 Nov 2015, 02:22 
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Anonynomenon wrote:
How does outer darkness related to that? Well as you already know, I believe that the outer darkness refers to the darkness outside the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. Its dark outside from the Day the Lord.


Outer Darkness would be connected to the three faculties of salvation in the sense that outer darkness is connected with both unbelieving believers and unbelievers. So we're dealing with salvation #1 and salvation #2 (the state of being saved and the state of maturity).

Anonynomenon wrote:
So, my opinion of Outer Darkness is quite literal, and I believe it helps us understand the "Tribulation Sequence"...BUT, what does Outer Darkness imply? Well, its a penalty for believers who learn to hate Christ. They aren't just immature, they hate Christ by turning against fellow believers as seen in Matt 24:45-51.

As RBT would say, these are believes with so much scar tissue that they experience "blackout of the soul". So its quite ironic; those who blackout their souls get to sit in outer darkness.

Well my issue is that the tribulation is more or less reserved for unbelievers exclusively that won't 'mind change' and would rather attempt suicide. Those in outer darkness (believers) wouldn't be involved with that.

I'm also certain that you can screw up your soul regardless if you're a believer or an unbeliever. So if your soul is messed, it won't necessarily imply outer darkness.

Anonynomenon wrote:
@ Brainout

So continuing with the soul-garment line of thought, it seems that how you think determines what you wear.

Now lets look at hypocrisy (the opposite to the Mind of Christ).

Quote:
Luke 20:46“Beware of the scribes, who like to walk around in long robes, and love respectful greetings in the market places, and chief seats in the synagogues and places of honor at banquets, 47who devour widows’ houses, and for appearance’s sake offer long prayers. These will receive greater condemnation.”


Here we see the hypocrite scribes who think so highly of themselves that they wear the royal robes, sit in chief seats and take places of honour at the banquets. I can hear the words ringing in my mind; "last will be first and first will be last".

In the 5th Seal of Revelation, the martyrs are give white robes as well as the Great Multitude who serve the Lamb. It seems consistent that the maturity of your soul determines your heavenly clothing.


Thought always dictates what you wear, and in some ways people dress for ulterior reasons rather than just for fashion. For example Stalin liked to wear white so he'd look cleaner / holier than the other guys (I have no idea why Harry Truman is holding their hands in such a demented way, oh and only a democrat smiles while holding Stalin's hand):
Image

Luke and Mark regarding the scribes and (most likely) the pharisees robes is due to the fact they were done for religious reasons. It's a RELIGIOUS mentality you have to avoid and it's deadly-- for many continue to this day like catholics and the orthodox.

Quote:
Luke 20:46 Pay attention from the scribes. They desire to walk around in robes and love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and have the chief seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at feasts.
Luke 20:46 προσέχετε ἀπὸ τῶν γραμματέων τῶν θελόντων περιπατεῖν ἐν στολαῖς καὶ φιλούντων ἀσπασμοὺς ἐν ταῖς ἀγοραῖς καὶ πρωτοκαθεδρίας ἐν ταῖς συναγωγαῖς καὶ πρωτοκλισίας ἐν τοῖς δείπνοις,

Mark 12:38 As he taught, Jesus said, "look at to PERCEIVE from the scribes. They desire to walk around in robes and be greeted with respect in the marketplaces,
Mark 12:38 Καὶ ἐν τῇ διδαχῇ αὐτοῦ ἔλεγεν· βλέπετε ἀπὸ τῶν γραμματέων τῶν θελόντων ἐν στολαῖς περιπατεῖν καὶ ἀσπασμοὺς ἐν ταῖς ἀγοραῖς


Also notice that Mark upgrades Luke with blepete (βλέπετε) it's specifically involving to deal with 'looking at'. So it's a cautionary observation. My modified translation edits could be off, but I'm trying to bring out the transition from προσέχετε to βλέπετε. Where the caution becomes to observe and see what they're doing. And that's quite the change when we're talking just with the robes-- because it's a RELIGIOUS mentality. So if you 'see' any stuck up priest wearing long (religious) clothing, you know to run and that they have zero doctrine in their head.

I wouldn't say that the scribes and pharisees were wearing "royal" robes as you say, since Christ is trying to emphasize that they're religious robes. I suppose it wouldn't hit you as hard unless you grew up with having to go to catholic mass.

Anonynomenon wrote:
@ Brainout
Well, I think with the 'outer darkness' issue, we need to find the literal interpretation first, then we can see what spiritual principles are applied. Matt 24 (last half) and 25 are very specific about one single event, the Day of the Lord, so I feel it has a very literal answer. If we try using a figurative interpretation first, then we risk overshooting dispensational boundaries.

Not saying your wrong either. It makes sense that spiritually distant believers have a physically distant place in the kingdom, and that is also implied by "outer darkness". But again, what is the primary message? Who is it primarily directed too? Not the Church in my opinion (Church was not supposed to happen).

I would disagree about the human spirit. Thieme taught that our human spirit is dead as a result of Adam's sin. If judicial salvation removes sin, then it removes what kills the spirit. We are born again (of water and SPIRIT-spiritual regeneration) as a direct result of judicial salvation. In my mind, the two go hand in hand.

I don't think it's being literal, as someone who is doctrinally in 'darkness' isn't in literal darkness. And it wouldn't make sense (to me) for God to place people in a literally darkened area, since God's method is always to get people 'to see'.

I can't comment on the "human spirit" since it's a foreign concept to me-- and it has so many variables associated to it that it could have a tome written on it, therefore I won't get into that.


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PostPosted: 12 Nov 2015, 02:57 
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Well the Tribulation is a time for non-believers to believe. Some will and some won't. That's why the Two Witnesses and the 144K are sent to evangelize on two separate occasions. I just wrote about this in the Tribulation Sequence thread. Aside from 144K and Two Witnesses, no one is saved in the first 42 months but after the Two Witnesses are killed and revived, a great multitude will believe. So it would be a bit inaccurate to say that no on will believe during the Tribulation.

As I tried to illustrate in the Outer Darkness and Tribulation Sequence threads, the whole sequence and interpretation is layed out in the Wedding Parables in Matt 22 and Luke 14. The more I review it, the more obvious it becomes to me. In the most literal sense, the Outer Darkness is for Loser Tribulation Believers ONLY.

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PostPosted: 12 Nov 2015, 07:03 
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Anonynomenon wrote:
Well the Tribulation is a time for non-believers to believe. Some will and some won't. That's why the Two Witnesses and the 144K are sent to evangelize on two separate occasions. I just wrote about this in the Tribulation Sequence thread. Aside from 144K and Two Witnesses, no one is saved in the first 42 months but after the Two Witnesses are killed and revived, a great multitude will believe. So it would be a bit inaccurate to say that no on will believe during the Tribulation.

As I tried to illustrate in the Outer Darkness and Tribulation Sequence threads, the whole sequence and interpretation is layed out in the Wedding Parables in Matt 22 and Luke 14. The more I review it, the more obvious it becomes to me. In the most literal sense, the Outer Darkness is for Loser Tribulation Believers ONLY.


You'll have to show me where it says in revelation that people will believe: because from what I understand all believers are evacuated and no believers will be involved *as a result of it happening in the first place*--and if the unbelievers would rather be tortured and repeatedly try to KILL themselves instead of believing paints quite a serious picture:
Quote:
Revelation 9:6 During those days people will seek death but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.
Revelation 9:6 καὶ ἐν ταῖς ἡμέραις ἐκείναις ζητήσουσιν οἱ ἄνθρωποι τὸν θάνατον καὶ οὐ μὴ εὑρήσουσιν αὐτόν, καὶ ἐπιθυμήσουσιν ἀποθανεῖν καὶ φεύγει ὁ θάνατος ἀπ᾽ αὐτῶν.


And regarding the two witnesses, after they're killed it seems as if the people on earth simply pat one another on the back and celebrate their death:
Quote:
Revelation 11:10 The inhabitants of the earth will rejoice over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.
Revelation 11:10 καὶ οἱ κατοικοῦντες ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς χαίρουσιν ἐπ᾽ αὐτοῖς καὶ εὐφραίνονται καὶ δῶρα πέμψουσιν ἀλλήλοις, ὅτι οὗτοι οἱ δύο προφῆται ἐβασάνισαν τοὺς κατοικοῦντας ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς.


If that future generation gets to the point where they won't even BELIEVE to the point they'd rather kill themselves repeatedly, I am not so certain seeing the two witnesses (which they claim 'tormented them' will make them mind change). But I would like to see your responses to this.

From what I understand it's going to be a repeat situation similar to the days of Noah. And let's say if someone did believe during the tribulation-- they probably would be immediately 'raptured away', but no mentioning of that which I can see. I mean, you could say that SURELY someone would believe during the time of Noah out of the however many people... but nobody did except Noah and his family.

I have a feeling that generation will be far removed from the one we're in now. Sure the rapture could happen at any given time, but we all know it's not going to happen for awhile-- simply due to the fact there are too many "powerhouse" believers (judging by revelation it would be happening to a generation so far removed from ours with loads of information forgotten all over again). AND I might add, there haven't been this many for a LONG time. Computers are also helping escalate this to new degrees and rebuild what has been forgotten (but at the same time God is going to hold us under more accountability: double edged sword, but a good one because I'd rather have the ability for more doctrine and more accountability, than less doctrine and less accountability).


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PostPosted: 12 Nov 2015, 11:19 
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Re the reddened text below: where did Thieme say that? We are born soul imputed to body at birth, no human spirit. Adam's died, the woman's died, but we don't get one in the first place. Only at 2nd birth, Titus 3:5.

As to the rest of what you're saying, yeah I see your point; so how do we establish the literalness? Same issue as pertained when GeneZ was insisting that the PreIncarnate Soul was literal too, but the Hebrew has three different meanings (nephesh, lit. breathing, so how can it be non-incarnate).

So what vocabulary would for sure, denote only a literal skotos or hoshek?

Anonynomenon wrote:
@ Brainout
Well, I think with the 'outer darkness' issue, we need to find the literal interpretation first, then we can see what spiritual principles are applied. Matt 24 (last half) and 25 are very specific about one single event, the Day of the Lord, so I feel it has a very literal answer. If we try using a figurative interpretation first, then we risk overshooting dispensational boundaries.

Not saying your wrong either. It makes sense that spiritually distant believers have a physically distant place in the kingdom, and that is also implied by "outer darkness". But again, what is the primary message? Who is it primarily directed too? Not the Church in my opinion (Church was not supposed to happen).

I would disagree about the human spirit. Thieme taught that our human spirit is dead as a result of Adam's sin. If judicial salvation removes sin, then it removes what kills the spirit. We are born again (of water and SPIRIT-spiritual regeneration) as a direct result of judicial salvation. In my mind, the two go hand in hand.


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PostPosted: 12 Nov 2015, 11:29 
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Interesting: so would you mind elaborating on the reddened stuff? Where in scripture is it said that no one believes during the first 3.5 years except for the evangelists? Or did you mean something else?

And how do you see the Wedding parable meaning only Trib saved who didn't grow aka 'losers' in the Col's vocab? Because, in the Rev series when he was covering the 2nd Advent (Rev17 et seq daily exegesis), he was speculating that all those who came back with Christ would be "cooling their heels" either off planet or "on the sidelines", "just watching" the ruling class? And it was speculation, at least I don't remember him citing any verses.

Sorry to bother you with all this. I gave the quotes which I can't say exactly in what lessons he said them, but maybe God will cause you to remember, or He knows where the verses are. We need more than one passage.

Seems like this kind of clarification would be important.

Anonynomenon wrote:
Well the Tribulation is a time for non-believers to believe. Some will and some won't. That's why the Two Witnesses and the 144K are sent to evangelize on two separate occasions. I just wrote about this in the Tribulation Sequence thread. Aside from 144K and Two Witnesses, no one is saved in the first 42 months but after the Two Witnesses are killed and revived, a great multitude will believe. So it would be a bit inaccurate to say that no on will believe during the Tribulation.

As I tried to illustrate in the Outer Darkness and Tribulation Sequence threads, the whole sequence and interpretation is layed out in the Wedding Parables in Matt 22 and Luke 14. The more I review it, the more obvious it becomes to me. In the most literal sense, the Outer Darkness is for Loser Tribulation Believers ONLY.


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PostPosted: 12 Nov 2015, 11:40 
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Jumping in here. Ignore me if you want. I snipped out sections to focus on my queries back to you.
hupostasis wrote:
You'll have to show me where it says in revelation that people will believe: because from what I understand all believers are evacuated and no believers will be involved *as a result of it happening in the first place*--and if the unbelievers would rather be tortured and repeatedly try to KILL themselves instead of believing paints quite a serious picture:
Quote:
Revelation 9:6 During those days people will seek death but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.
Revelation 9:6 καὶ ἐν ταῖς ἡμέραις ἐκείναις ζητήσουσιν οἱ ἄνθρωποι τὸν θάνατον καὶ οὐ μὴ εὑρήσουσιν αὐτόν, καὶ ἐπιθυμήσουσιν ἀποθανεῖν καὶ φεύγει ὁ θάνατος ἀπ᾽ αὐτῶν.


And regarding the two witnesses, after they're killed it seems as if the people on earth simply pat one another on the back and celebrate their death:
Quote:
Revelation 11:10 The inhabitants of the earth will rejoice over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.
Revelation 11:10 καὶ οἱ κατοικοῦντες ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς χαίρουσιν ἐπ᾽ αὐτοῖς καὶ εὐφραίνονται καὶ δῶρα πέμψουσιν ἀλλήλοις, ὅτι οὗτοι οἱ δύο προφῆται ἐβασάνισαν τοὺς κατοικοῦντας ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς.


If that future generation gets to the point where they won't even BELIEVE to the point they'd rather kill themselves repeatedly, I am not so certain seeing the two witnesses (which they claim 'tormented them' will make them mind change). But I would like to see your responses to this.

From what I understand it's going to be a repeat situation similar to the days of Noah. And let's say if someone did believe during the tribulation-- they probably would be immediately 'raptured away', but no mentioning of that which I can see. I mean, you could say that SURELY someone would believe during the time of Noah out of the however many people... but nobody did except Noah and his family.

Okay, the first thing is, the whole point of the Tribulation is to wake people up. So new people do believe, during it. In fact, the big problem was the first time, NOT ENOUGH believed in Christ to constitute a NATION so the King would have a populated Kingdom. Hence, Matt 16:18 and 22 and 24, etc., going to the highways and byways to find replacements, as Vashti did not come.

Enough believers on earth still alive for there to BE a nation, comes only at the cost of the tribulation. Daniel 12 is on that, so too the last half of Daniel 11, and there'd be no need for a Rev 12, 13, 16 and all the passages on 'Dead in Christ henceforth'(Rev 14:13) if there were no new believers.

Unless I misread what you mean? I don't know if you've had a chance yet to hear Thieme's 4-year Rev series, it will cover the details in the exegesis, but this much Scripture and doctrine now, is enough to make the question now?


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PostPosted: 12 Nov 2015, 16:02 
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@ Brainout

Thieme did say that we are born spiritually dead as a result of Adam's sin, but you're right, he never said that we actually possessed any form of spirit before regeneration. But the idea is saving man and providing a human spirit as a result of judicial salvation.

What I meant by literal, pertained to what outer darkness is, in reference to prophecy. I firmly believe that it is the blackened earth (hhoshekh--darkness outside that divides) while the Wedding Feast is going. Thats about as literal as it gets in my opinion. Do you have scripture that contradicts that? Becuase while I like the theory, I would like it to be tested for weaknesses by someone else.

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PostPosted: 12 Nov 2015, 17:26 
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Jude 24, at Rapture: Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,

Then 1 Corinthians 15:54-55 54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. 55 "O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?"

Of course the Rapture event, we're all in the Throne Room, Rev 4:1 sea of glass. So no one is 'outer' then, anywhere.

"No more sorrow, no more tears, no more pain, no more death. The old things have passed away." Rev 21:4, beginning of eternity.

Notice the equating of no-sorrow in each case. Not separated. So I have a hard time claiming a LITERAL darkness outside except spatially. Like, the Lord is headquartered at the New Jerusalem in His Physical Body, and the Kings get to visit often; presumably He tours the universe on a circuit, no doubt with the 144K; and those in the outermost reaches of that universe see Him the least often, so that kind of 'outer darkness'.

Class society. The Wedding Parable divides classes: those who believed, and those who didn't. Second class, among those who believed: those who grew in His Word to be Fit Bride, and those who didn't, though legally 'married' (metaphor for saved). Harems have classes, too. So if we extend the meaning of being shut out yet still part of the Bride, then it's a physical separation, but not hell.

During the Mill, maybe the lower classes among Royal Family are that far away already. I'm not sure that ALL the Body stays only on the Earth all that time. Seems like overkill and overcrowded.

So where is it said that post-death if saved, still literally gnashing your teeth is a related issue. For that's a pretty literal passage, but it just has to be dual-entendre, and if so how?

Anonynomenon wrote:
@ Brainout

Thieme did say that we are born spiritually dead as a result of Adam's sin, but you're right, he never said that we actually possessed any form of spirit before regeneration. But the idea is saving man and providing a human spirit as a result of judicial salvation.

What I meant by literal, pertained to what outer darkness is, in reference to prophecy. I firmly believe that it is the blackened earth (hhoshekh--darkness outside that divides) while the Wedding Feast is going. Thats about as literal as it gets in my opinion. Do you have scripture that contradicts that? Becuase while I like the theory, I would like it to be tested for weaknesses by someone else.


There's one other avenue of thought to ponder. Dunno about you and I'm not asking you to say, but I know I've screwed up bigtime in my spiritual life. One day, it will be public, though probably not before I die, as it wouldn't be considered 'bigtime' down here. I live with that every day. Can't call it hahaha enjoyment type of happiness.

Yet I've never been happier. So maybe the 'outer darkness' is a STATUS of KNOWING that you live with forever. Makes sense to argue that physically one is farther away from Christ, too.

So yeah, three types salvation, but HOW MUCH saved in Type II, well.. that will vary greatly.


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PostPosted: 12 Nov 2015, 18:53 
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@ Brainout

You're forgetting that in all cases (that I can find), the term outer darkness is used for one group of people. Those are believers who are not dressed to attend the Wedding Feast. For them it's literal, for they are left in the darkness outside.

The term (in the literal sense) is not to be applied to the Church or any other group OTHER THAN loser Tribulation survivers who believe. That should be our focus in the audit. That is what the Wedding parable of Matt 22 focuses on.

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PostPosted: 12 Nov 2015, 18:59 
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@ Brainout
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Interesting: so would you mind elaborating on the reddened stuff? Where in scripture is it said that no one believes during the first 3.5 years except for the evangelists? Or did you mean something else?


On the first "1260 days/42 months", I'll have to elaborate after work.

On the Wedding Feast, you'll have to go back to the Outer Darkness thread and look at what I wrote. Its all there. If there is something you misunderstand or disagree with, please let me know. There is always room for learning on both sides.

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PostPosted: 12 Nov 2015, 20:56 
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The three passages dealing with the reddened 'group' in your post are Matt. 8:12; 22:13; 25:30 are three different classes and groups.

If you claim they are Trib survivors who believe, they go into the Mill, still with the opportunity to mature.

So this 'outer darkness' 'group' isn't even one, and isn't the one listed. Survivors don't have a bema yet. They haven't died. So 'judgment' for them is yet future.

So now what?


Anonynomenon wrote:
@ Brainout

You're forgetting that in all cases (that I can find), the term outer darkness is used for one group of people. Those are believers who are not dressed to attend the Wedding Feast. For them it's literal, for they are left in the darkness outside.

The term (in the literal sense) is not to be applied to the Church or any other group OTHER THAN loser Tribulation survivers who believe. That should be our focus in the audit. That is what the Wedding parable of Matt 22 focuses on.


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PostPosted: 12 Nov 2015, 21:09 
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Quote:
The three passages dealing with the reddened 'group' in your post are Matt. 8:12; 22:13; 25:30 are three different classes and groups.


I don't see it that way. Each one of those verses are describing the same group of loser believers. They are children of the Kingdom, but will not recline with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob at the Wedding Feast because they neglected doctrine.

Both Matt 25:30 and Matt 22:13 describe people who are alive on earth when the Son returns. Matt 8:12 doesn't specify.

As you said, they are survivors, and their bema won't be for another 1,050 years. So the outer darkness is they're punishment and warning to grow up in the years to come.

So what makes you think they aren't the same people?

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PostPosted: 12 Nov 2015, 21:34 
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Okay, the fact that they didn't DIE yet means they get no judgment yet. First to die, then the judgment, Hebrews 9:27. So it cannot be them.

What distinguishes these as multiple groups:

Matt 8, the 'group' is Jews who could have been believers (Romans 9 ties later on); the people Israel, sons of the kingdom AT THE TIME HE SPEAKS. Remember, Church doesn't yet exist.

Matt22, by contrast, is the search for Esther, Vashti having been predicted to not come (well, not much of a prediction, He's talking in his Last Year). So that's Church as Bride (it's a wedding not merely a dinner), but Friends of the Bride could still be Jews or even 'Lord Lord believers' of Matt7 tie back, since also the language is in Matt 8. So parallel group hence same vocabulary but not the same people.

Matt 25, obviously at 2nd Advent, the slaves who give a report: cannot be survivors. You could argue maybe they are dead Trib believers now resurrected, but the context seems to include all OT as well. But not surviving ones.

I'm typing as fast as I can, not trying to be dogmatic, and probably contradicting something else I posted. Running with this argument now, as a working hypothesis, but that's all it is. Tentative.


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PostPosted: 12 Nov 2015, 23:54 
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@ Brainout

But who ever said that any of these believers are giving an account at bema?

Matt 24 (last half) and Matt 25 are about people who are told to watch for second advent. How can they watch if they are already dead?
Quote:
Matt 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Those who are left in outer darkness are still alive at the 2nd Advent according to Matt 24:50-51.

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PostPosted: 13 Nov 2015, 03:30 
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Okay, good points. But a passage always has a context, and each Bible book has its own outline and flow. So let's start with the Matt 8:12 context, the goyim centurion's faith being greater than Israel's. For stylistically, this is the first passage with 'outer darkness' in it, so it should be setting the meaning of the term, which gets repeated twice more afterwards.

(Book of Hebrews does the same with hupostasis, using it in Heb 1:3, 3:14, 11:1.)

There, about healing a servant of the centurion, clever play on doulos (slaveson, really, same as Hebrew abad). So the context is goyim vs. Israel and healing vs. sickness, not directly about salvation.

'Faith' is Greek pistis, first meaning WHAT is believed (Bible doctrine), 'passive use' as the lexicographers would say. So Gentiles believing in Scripture versus Jews, the Gentiles growing more than the Jews, with our centurion as the example.

But also, like Paul will later stress in Romans 9, how much do you BELIEVE in that Word? So dual-entendre. So Paul might be playing to this Matt 8 passage?

Christ quickly says and it's not a parable but a parallelism, of those who sit at table: closeness is based on FAITH. Obviously not a salvation but of DEGREE, so then it would be that mix of how much Doctrine and how much you believe it, aka GAAP or Oper Z, right?

So the direct reference is to Jews versus Gentiles. Larger reference of how much maturation (which happens as you learn and live on Bible). Right?

Another reference is that those initially entrusted with the pistis=Word, who should have been the douloi and inheriting the Kingdom.. won't. Because they did not believe. Paul plays on that, in Romans 10.

So is this a spectrum parallel? Where at the very bottom.. hell? And at the top, dining with Abraham et al., not mentioning Christ, but the patriarchs, since Israel is in view?

For this seems a dual entendre to Type II salvation (of the soul), with obvious parallel to even being saved or not.

Again, still only thinking out loud. Not rebutting or concluding yet. Just trying to establish an analysis path so to test variant interps. Here, the question, what other NT passage looks back at Matthew 8, 22, 25?


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PostPosted: 13 Nov 2015, 04:54 
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So now we have an angle: Belief vs. outcome. The Bema, is an outcome. Result of belief. So too the Matt 25 parable of the talents, which you're covering below. That's clearly a Bema ruling. The servants in the parable are alive, but the judgment of servants in the analogy by God, is at resurrection, not before. It ain't over until the fat lady sings. You can't get paid for nor go to hell and can't go to heaven and can't get your inheritance until DEAD, Hebrews 9. Christ had to DIE for your payment to occur, and you have to DIE in order to become like Him, share in Him, have Eternal Life in a new body. So having-been, dead. Sea of glass, Rev 4:1, 1Cor15, 1Cor3.

In between, Wedding supper Matt 22. Which would technically fall after the Resurrected Ones Return, Rev 17ff. So there are other tie-in parables, like with the virgins, but the Matt22 focus is a play on Esther and Vashti, so CHURCH is in view. She's the Bride.

The tough part is the meaning of the wedding garment. You're thinking Doctrine, and that makes so much sense. So why 'outer darkness' used there? It's a GUEST not Bride, being thrown out. And the GUEST is not a doulos from Matt 25. Could be maybe also a potential son of the Kingdom in Matt 8, but not properly clothed, which most theological notions deem means 'unsaved'.

That's where I'm stuck.

Anonynomenon wrote:
@ Brainout

But who ever said that any of these believers are giving an account at bema?

Matt 24 (last half) and Matt 25 are about people who are told to watch for second advent. How can they watch if they are already dead?
Quote:
Matt 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Those who are left in outer darkness are still alive at the 2nd Advent according to Matt 24:50-51.


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PostPosted: 13 Nov 2015, 05:17 
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@ Brainout

Ok, you have me sold on the Talents Parable being a bema event. So that reference to outer darkness has got to be figurative (and maybe literal too if they will be cooling their heels at 2nd Advent. Maybe that's where Thieme got it from). I guess the same goes for Matt 8.

However, Matt 22 must be literal, reflecting the status of the loser-believers' souls who survived the Tribulation. But they still have the Millennium to grow. Then again, maybe surviving losers will be cooling heels with resurrected losers, but I still think Matt 22's focus is on the Tribulation Sequence and survivors (but not necessarily excluding the dead).

Yeah, Church is the Bride in Matt 22, so no Church member can be kicked out of the Feast but your placement in the Body of Christ reflects you're spiritual growth. Are you a hand or a toe nail?

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PostPosted: 13 Nov 2015, 05:35 
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Quote:
Could be maybe also a potential son of the Kingdom in Matt 8, but not properly clothed, which most theological notions deem means 'unsaved'.


Look at Matt 22 again.
Quote:
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

The ones with dirty garments cant be 'unsaved', for the non-believers are killed off before the Marriage Supper at Christ's return.

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PostPosted: 13 Nov 2015, 06:28 
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Well, don't be 'sold' on anything I say. The issue is to find some interp we can't refute.

While you were typing your last response I was reading the Matt22 again. Struck me that if at first the king is saying everything is ready and the animals butchered, then they don't come and then he sends his armies out to kill those who murdered his slaves asking them to come, well.. that's a long period of time. The meat would have rotted by then.

So are we looking at a Dispensational panorama in this parable? For again, Bride is Church. So maybe again, as in Matt 8, goyim vs. The Chosen People comparison idea? Even though, of course, any gentile who believed in the Adonai Elohenu in the OT was made a Jew even as any Jew today or since Pentecost 30 AD would be part of Church the minute he believes, too.

So let's play with that. Pretend that Matt 22 is playing on Daniel 9, how originally there was to be no Church, and the Wedding was supposed to be attended by Israel as Bride. But Vashti refused to come. Pause, delay, interlude, Wedding Put On Hold.

Church instead is Bride, Dispensation Ends, Rapture: so now your meaning re Trib -- and the actual Wedding takes place, Rev 19, aka 2nd Advent (which maybe starts circa Rev 17, depends on when those nuclear explosions occur).

Who are the guests? That was your focus, right? Guests can only be Resurrected believers from the OT and Trib, plus any Trib believers alive at that time. The ones alive have to be enough to constitute a nation.

At the very beginning of Mill, there are also unbelievers alive. Baptism of Fire hasn't yet taken place.. or is Matt22 covering that, too?

What if the 'outer darkness' really refers also to the Baptism of Fire? Even so, this line of analysis gets us into more alignment with your contention? But still, why the issue about wrong wedding garments? The cultural reference is this: the one giving the wedding PROVIDED the clothing. You were to wear it, or weren't in the 'party'. Same as for many customs today, most notably the hajj.

I gotta find my Thieme notes on this. I have the classes, but I don't remember if I finished the Matthew tapes. Here are some commentaries: search on 'Commentaries' after you load the page, start reading. Take special note of the verses on the same topic, i.e., Isaiah 61:10, Zeph 1:7-8.

Bibleworks 9 has some of these commentaries. I forget which ones. So if you've theWord or commentaries or Bibleworks, maybe some help can be found also there.


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PostPosted: 13 Nov 2015, 06:57 
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@ Brainout
Well the armies killing the murderers and burning the cities sounds like Baptism of Fire to me. And in the Parable, it sounds like both servants are sent as well as the armies in one single day; cuz the King says, "behold the wedding is ready but those invited were not worthy." So I don't know how the timing would work. Is it heaven time, where a day is as 1,000 years, or is it human time. I don't see any indication in the Parable that the wedding was delayed.

And also remember that a third set of servants where sent out to gather people from the highways, so could this be the angels gathering the elect into one place. That makes sense.

So we have to understand the timing: Was the wedding delayed in the Parable as you mentioned? If so, we need answers.

Or is this all happening in one day? If so, this could still be focusing on the Tribulation.

It just seems like all the Tribulation characters are there: Two Witnesses, 144K, indifferent invitees, abusive invitees, the gathering angels, well dressed and poorly dressed guests... And of course, Father, Son, Bride, armies of king, 'hhoshekh' (maybe as a result of 'thohu wabohu'. The more I look at it, the more attractive it becomes...but that's not necessarily a good thing.

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PostPosted: 13 Nov 2015, 07:15 
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@ Brainout

Quote:
Matt 26:39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.


Why did Jesus say this prayer? He knew His fate as the Lamb?

Could it have been that He was asking God if He could continue for those last (planned) 7 years?

Its one thing to pay for the sins of the world, but its another to pay for world and Church.

So by that, its possible that Matt 22 did not factor in the Dispensational detour.

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PostPosted: 13 Nov 2015, 07:37 
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Well, first of all, it can't all be in one day, the gathering of the guests, whether the first group or the last group. Parallel. Feasts weren't done that way. A king who's marrying off his son means a huge ceremony with a good year or more of preparation, that's why those getting the invite the first time, could make excuses. So the event is being telescoped, from the first invite to the last of the first group, and so too, for the highways and byways, as that too takes a long time. We know it's Earth time because the invitees are humans, clearly not yet dead. So that explains why some (not all) of them beat up the inviting slaves, among the first group.

As for the Lord maybe asking for the added seven years in Gethsemane, I don't follow you there at all. He's asking for the entire CROSS to be bypassed (see how He uses 'cup' to the disciples, always consistent). Either way, that doesn't mean Matt22 is bypassed. Or if it does, I don't see how you come to that conclusion?


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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2015, 10:35 
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Back to the beginning on Matt8, 22, 25.

Matt 8, comparison of a gentile BELIEVER versus Israel. So BELIEVER versus BELIEVER how much BELIEVING. Or, could be said for goyim versus sons, as a group, with the centurion as the poster boy/strawman.

Matt22, Wedding Feast. Bride isn't mentioned, only the guests. Guests who refuse, and those who come, one among them refusing the provided wedding garment so rejected. Twist here is that the King's Son is getting married, so presumably all the guests would be subjects of the King, ergo his legal right to send his armies against them. So then oblique reference to them being servants, too? Apathy/Indifference more than disbelief, seems the issue.

Meaning? Still stuck here, because this is about the guests, not the Bride. But ties to Isaiah 61:10 and Zeph 1:7-8, so...

Matt25, comparison of SERVANTS. In rigid sense, another BELIEVER comparison for they all get some of the Kingdom money to play with while their Master goes away to get another Kingdom, implication that this is a JEWISH comparison (for the other kingdom would be the Church, previously disclosed since Matt 16, depicted in the future as Replacement Bride in Matt 22). Alternately, since we are all made directly by God at birth, could be a slaveson comparison whether believer or not, and the 'talent' is still the Word.. but starting with, the Gospel (stingy servant refusing it).

Somehow these are common properties which provoke the common 'outer darkness' and 'gnashing' language judgment in each case. Can't solely mean saved versus unsaved. Must be at least dual-entendre.

Paul makes it dual entendre, in Romans 9-11, but in an entirely different -- corporate -- way. ENTRUSTED WITH WORD. Israel (corporate) was entrusted, but didn't believe. So we corporate Church, get grafted in. So we are now entrusted, do we believe, or do we just mouth it and get all religious, like Israel has/had done? Notice: 'now' is a keyword in the NT for Church.

If not BELIEVE versus religify, then God can graft us out, too. Romans 12 then goes into what constitutes spirituality, learning and living on Bible as God has assigned to each one a standard of thinking from doctrine (Thieme's expanded trans, Romans series classes). Paul will later play on that Romans 12:3, with Eph 4:16 using same keyword, metron, which is also in the LXX of Isa 53:12. Booty. Booty of His thinking within His Booty Bride.

So that's what Matt8, 22, 25 mean. The Entrusted-with-Word Role.

  • Did you BELIEVE in it, or just mouth it?
  • Did you LEARN it, or just thump it?
  • Did you GROW in it, or twist it into a claim of good deeds?
  • Did you even BELIEVE in His Payment, to be saved?
  • If no, you're excluded from the gazebo in the Garden,
  • the Voting Pebble,
  • Entrance into the New Jerusalem,
  • Kingship,
  • Nearness at Table,
  • and maybe from Heaven itself, if you never even once believed He paid for You.

The above bullets are covered by Thieme when he gets to Rev 2-3.

Ouch. Then again, it shows what Salvation II, maturation, James 1-2.. means.

Again, this is all tentative, but it seems like Roman 9-11 is pointing to those Matt passages, since when Paul wrote, only Matthew's Gospel was written. (Mark wrote Passover 69, see http://www.brainout.net/LukeDatelineMeters.htm for details.)


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PostPosted: 22 Nov 2015, 14:38 
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Okay, after posting a reply to Anonymenon here re eternal priesthood, it dawned on me that
  • since the priesthood is still needed, then
  • so too salvation.. but not from sin.
  • Rather, from human thinking. For our souls don't resurrect. That's the only part that doesn't. You can't still be you and lose/regain your soul. Whatever your thought pattern at death, that's what remains.
  • But thoughts change the person. You keep on thinking.
  • So what 'saves' you from a pattern of thinking which lacked Bible Doctrine?
  • And who among us will get enough of it, by the time we die?
  • Enter the other role of priesthood, which Anonymenon touched on, in that thread.

The implication then is awesome. In order to play out LEARNING, you'd have many 'neighborhoods' in the universe which replicate a time, culture, and lifestyle, kinda like the Rennaisance Faire, or TomorrowLand, or those Amish tourism places, taking you back in time.. with the real people who LIVED then. So it would be authentic.

Idea is to play with each of those segments of geography and time, what SHOULD HAVE BEEN the Bible thinking going on.

For then people get to learn how-to's, practicing live. Whether it's a permanent assignment or a vacation or choice where and how to live, I don't know.

Your Thoughts?


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PostPosted: 23 Nov 2015, 07:56 
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brainout wrote:
The implication then is awesome. In order to play out LEARNING, you'd have many 'neighborhoods' in the universe which replicate a time, culture, and lifestyle, kinda like the Rennaisance Faire, or TomorrowLand, or those Amish tourism places, taking you back in time.. with the real people who LIVED then. So it would be authentic.

Idea is to play with each of those segments of geography and time, what SHOULD HAVE BEEN the Bible thinking going on.

For then people get to learn how-to's, practicing live. Whether it's a permanent assignment or a vacation or choice where and how to live, I don't know.

Your Thoughts?


I find that statement very fascinating. If you take into consideration all of the generations that have occurred, people will obviously still have preferences with them. I don't think you could mix dissimilar people together if their mind isn't at peace about it-- and God would provision something to satisfy that aspect. Or maybe not. But that would be nice as there are things in this present time that I enjoy and would not be present at any other periods.

You could also take into consideration that while everyone is born unequally, the opportunity to learn the Bible in periods can potentially also be unequal (think of back to the dark ages, they wouldn't have had BibleWorks).


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PostPosted: 23 Nov 2015, 08:16 
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Yeah, and it would explain so much from a Justice angle, too. Presumably we each have 'jobs'. So, then too vacation, since this is the God who mandates Saturdays and whole-year Sabbaticals on pain of death.. to learn Bible. Clearly the job is meant to get Bible, that's a 24/7 thing, as noted in Deut 6:4-9.

And, to learn how others learned. Sheni, doing it over, how it shoulda been. To see God's Will for that group in that time, for you, for your group in your time -- had His DIRECTIVE (rather than Permissive or Overriding) Will been accomplished. So much doctrine can be learned and used, that way!

Thieme speculated often during PPG (Ephesians 1985) series that there would be a permanent memorial to lost opportunity for the loser believer (and we all will have lost something versus God's Highest and Best), where 'you can visit your escrow' in a kind of museum. Well, wouldn't this be a living version?

It's just a guess, but it rings so aptly...

It feeds into what you and Anonymenon have been saying about outer darkness at the broadest 'essence' level. For here, even though everyone's happy, there's a constant replay of the shoulda been, with the enjoyment that goes with that.. yet at the same time, the constant knowledge it didn't happen. Acceptance of the justice of one's position and distance yet at the same time real pleasure in seeing so constantly, what God wanted it to be, which is a way to have BOTH. Yes?


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PostPosted: 25 Nov 2015, 02:22 
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I always had trouble understanding this passage.
Quote:
1 John 3:14 Anyone who does not love remains in death. 15Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.


Does this pertain to soul salvation? Obviously believers are capable of both overt and mental attitude murder, so in this case, "eternal life residing in him" must be the Mind of Christ in the soul. Basically, John is telling us to abide in Christ.

Is that what John is saying here?

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PostPosted: 25 Nov 2015, 02:43 
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Track it in the Greek. John's talking about FELLOWSHIP throughout, drawing parallels, using menw. Its root idea is a women who remains at home waiting for her husband to come home. So it comes to mean dwell, abide, remain.

So think: love and death cannot be in the same place at the same time. They are mutually exclusive. Similarly, you murder a moment by hating. And Eternal life you have juridically, but it's set aside, not active, parallel to the Holy Spirit when you're in a state of sin. Having murdered, yourself. Thieme called this 'temporal death' in the 1John classes, but you can see why.

So the 'death' of carnality is being depicted. You dwell in carnality and therefore it dwells in you, or you dwell in the Lord's Thinking between sins. In His House, get the pun?


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PostPosted: 25 Nov 2015, 03:03 
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@Brainout
Yeah, I agree with all that, but FELLOWSHIP is how you clothe your soul in white robes, right? Fellowship and learning/living Mind of Christ. If Christ is the Life, then doctrine resident in the soul is the same as "eternal life" in the soul.

The Human Spirit is reborn as a result of Juridical Salvation, so eternal life of the Human Spirit is non-meritorious.

The Soul cannot be annihilated, but it still needs Mind of Christ to be have eternal life/relationship with Christ.

Just thinking out loud. I'm wrestling with some other issues that are related to the soul.

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The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


Last edited by Anonynomenon on 25 Nov 2015, 04:03, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 25 Nov 2015, 04:01 
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Basically what I'm saying is salvation rescues us from death. If there are three categories of salvation then there must be three categories of death:

1) Spiritual Death requires Juridical Salvation
2) Soul Death/Separation from God requires Salvation by Abiding in Christ to produce fruit.
3) Physical Death requires Salvation by Resurrection.

So soul-death wouldn't be annihilation, but total separation from Christ's thinking, right.

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PostPosted: 25 Nov 2015, 06:32 
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Change 2):

Soul Death/Separation from God requires Salvation by Abiding in Christ to produce become fruit. There are so many verses on that I would be typing all night. Just look up 'fruit'. Quintessential are Gal 4:19 and all of Chapter 3, Isaiah 53:10. So that post-salvation we are to grow in Him as He is already in us, example of Col 1:25-27.

More than fruit. Glory:

Eph 1:6 eis epainon doxzes tes charitos autou
(lit., resulting in the praise of the Glory of His Grace, purpose of adoption)
Eph 1:12 (eis to einai hemas) eis epainon doxzes autou
(lit., with the result that we become the praise of His Glory, firstfruits analogy -- remember that's an ANNUAL thing)
Eph 1:14 eis epainon tes doxzes autou.
(lit., resulting in praise for His Glory, DOWNPAYMENT purpose for eternity.)

Ask God for other verses, I'm not sure which ones will be most helpful to you.


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 Post subject: Re: Overcome
PostPosted: 19 Dec 2015, 05:43 
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@Brainout

I'm beginning the 2nd letter in Revelation. Have a question about "overcoming".

Does "nikon" refer to Juridical Salvation, and "nikonti" to Soul Salvation?

Is that the difference between non-meritorious victory by faith in Christ, and meritorious victory via Abiding in Christ?

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PostPosted: 19 Dec 2015, 18:34 
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Seems like they both refer to spiritual maturation, same theme in 1John 2. Thieme didn't use the term 3 types of salvation, but he does distinguish in James, the 'saving of the soul' as spiritual maturation. Actually, the three are called in theology, positional sanctification, experiential sanctification, and ultimate sanctification.

Bible uses sozw for all three, hence I titled this thread Three Types of 'Salvation'. So here experiential sanctification, as theology and Thieme would put it, seems to be meant by both nikwn and nikwnti (participle, cute).


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PostPosted: 19 Dec 2015, 18:54 
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@Brainout

Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself, but the reason I ask is because one letter promises the Tree of Life to the one who overcomes (nikonti), and another letter promises protection from the second death to the one who overcomes (nikon).

We know that all who are Juridicially Saved will not face the Second Death, so in that instant, nikon is non-meritorious. So what makes the Tree of Life a meritorious privilege?

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PostPosted: 19 Dec 2015, 19:52 
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Wait until Thieme finishes (it's a post-salv maturation reward)...


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PostPosted: 27 Jan 2016, 07:40 
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brainout wrote:
it's a post-salv maturation reward...


I'm considering the idea that ALL of the nikon/nikonti clauses apply to winner-believers ONLY. In that case, Rev 2:11 would be no exception.

Consider the following:
Quote:
Rev 21:8 the portion allotted to them shall be in the Lake which burns with fire and sulphur. This is the Second Death.'


When a non-believer's works are judged by fire, they all burn away. They do not have the Divine Dynosphere, therefore only chaff to burn. Since they suffer 100% loss, they go to the Lake of Fire.

In the judgement of works, the only thing distinguishing a cosmic believer from a non-believer is the fact that a cosmic believer AT LEAST has the righteousness of Christ imputed.

So what exactly is the Second Death? Is it the Lake of Fire itself, or is it the process of suffering loss at the Judgement?

Quote:
Rev 2:11He that overcometh shall not be hurt by the second death.


Quote:
Prov 8:36"But he who sins against me injures his own soul; All those who hate me love death."


What if the Second Death applies to cosmic believers too?...Only, not resulting in 100% loss. Lets say the imputed Righteousness of Christ makes up 10% which can not be counted as loss.

This then creates two categories of Second Death:

1) Death by Second Death: A 100% loss of works, resulting in Lake of Fire, for non-believers ONLY.

2) Injury by Second Death: A significant, but not total loss of works, resulting in Outer Darkness, for cosmic believers ONLY.

Quote:
Rev 22:2 and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.


Why would the nations need healing, unless their population suffered injury???

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PostPosted: 27 Jan 2016, 10:31 
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No, that cannot be, as in 1John2 nikaw is applied to 'little children', meaning new/spiritual-childhood believers. So they didn't mature. Keep trying, though...


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PostPosted: 27 Jan 2016, 13:58 
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@Brainout

That's true, but would little children be sent to the Outer Darkness for not having the opportunity to mature? So maybe the penalty comes to those who had the time and availability of teachings, and didn't make use of it. I know nikaw can refer to juridicial and soul salvation, but it seems that the 7 letters refer to the soul side of things. I just feel like interpreting nikaw differently for each letter would open a double standard.

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PostPosted: 28 Jan 2016, 00:24 
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Well, that's why it seems we should treat 'outer' and 'darkness' analogously, for the elect. Figurative for some kind of distance and separation.


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PostPosted: 28 Jan 2016, 00:54 
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@Brainout

Well, I'm not sure its pure analogy. There must be physical distance to reflect spiritual distance. Like being locked out of the Wedding, or not being allowed into New Jerusalem.

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PostPosted: 28 Jan 2016, 06:33 
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Yeah, so now we're back to word searches but maybe refined: clothing versus naked (esp. in Revelation, since the Laodiceans were saved), 'outer', and 'darkness'. Any other keywords?

Anonynomenon wrote:
@Brainout

Well, I'm not sure its pure analogy. There must be physical distance to reflect spiritual distance. Like being locked out of the Wedding, or not being allowed into New Jerusalem.


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PostPosted: 28 Jan 2016, 16:03 
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Search terms: death, darkness, outside, sin, injury, soul, garments, linen, robes, naked.

Its no small task, but here is a pool of verses I've been accumulating over the past few months. I had the restructuring of the Bride in mind. It might prove helpful in our search.
Quote:

1 Cor 3:14If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. 16Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.

Rom 11:24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

John 15:5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

Rev 22:16“I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”

Rev 22:14Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.

Rev 2:11‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.’

1 Cor 3:15If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Prov 8:36"But he who sins against me injures his own soul; All those who hate me love death."

Rev 3:12‘He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem

Eph 2:20having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, 21in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, 22in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

Eph 5:5For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

Rev 3:5‘He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life (note: Rev 17:8 says non-believers names are note written in Book of Life at all. So "blotting out" is not a loss of salvation, but a loss of blessings due to a lack of experiential sanctification.)

2 Tim 2:11It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him; 12If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; 13If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

Hebrews 11:9-16 calls New Jerusalem (the city built by God) the City of Abraham; yet, Rev 21:9 calls it the Bride of the Lamb. Both Israel and the Church are called the spiritual seed of Abraham. If both Israel and the Church were/are betrothed to Christ, then the only logical conclusion (given the scriptural evidence) is; the faithful of Israel and the Church will be integrated together as the Bride of Christ to ultimately reflect His glory.

Clothing

Zech 3:1 Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?” 3Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments and standing before the angel. 4He spoke and said to those who were standing before him, saying, “Remove the filthy garments from him.” Again he said to him, “See, I have taken your iniquity away from you and will clothe you with festal robes.” 5Then I said, “Let them put a clean turban on his head.” So they put a clean turban on his head and clothed him with garments, while the angel of the LORD was standing by.

Rev 3:18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. 19‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.

Rev 19:7 “Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.” 8It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.


I included a few personal notes, but I'm not sure of anything yet.

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PostPosted: 28 Jan 2016, 22:01 
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brainout wrote:
No, that cannot be, as in 1John2 nikaw is applied to 'little children', meaning new/spiritual-childhood believers. So they didn't mature. Keep trying, though...


Quote:
Matthew 18:3
And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Mark 10:15
Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it."

Luke 18:17
Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it."

1 Corinthians 14:20
Brothers and sisters, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults.


It seems that children (for the most part) do not commit the deep rooted mental attitude sins that adults do. So theoretically, a believing child is not as likely to soil their garments as an adult would.

Like 1 Cor 14:20, be an infant to evil, but an adult in thinking.

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The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


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PostPosted: 29 Jan 2016, 07:21 
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Yeah, but that's the point. Clothing TYPE is an issue. Being clothed with Christ can be childish clothing or adult clothing, as 1 John2 shows.


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PostPosted: 02 Feb 2016, 02:41 
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I was having a hard time trying to figure out what roles clothing plays vs precious stones/metals, in determining our place in eternity. Then, I was lead to this passage (its ironic how I never saw it before, since RBT always opened with it).

Quote:
2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17so that the man of God may be adequate,
equipped for every good work.


If we associate righteousness (thinking doctrine while in fellowship) with white clothing, and good works with precious stones/metals; then 2 Tim 3 indicates righteousness is a prerequisite for production.

I'm not sure that clothing type is so much the issue, so long as the clothing isn't soiled. That seems to be what Jesus was saying when He said, "receive the kingdom of God like a little child."

Rev 22 also emphasize the importance of having clean garments to enter New Jerusalem, yet works (as in precious stones/metals), don't seem to be such an issue.

Works (good or bad) are thinking put into action. It looks like Jesus is more concerned with our thinking than action. I would imagine that righteous thinking would inevitably lead to righteous action. If a test is failed, then it reflects the believers unwillingness to maintain clean garments.

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The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


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