FrankForum (Frankness IS Forum)

I was listening to RBT's study on Revelation (1981), Lesson 457_0203, and the subject of angelic salvation came up in passing. The lesson was on Rev 4:4



Thieme said that these 24 elders were really 24 Elect Angels who overcame during the Pre-Adamic Angelic Conflict. He stated that their white garments and golden stephanos-crowns were indications that they had already passed through Bema. His assumption was that their Bema occurred sometime prior to the creation of Adam. He also mentioned briefly the Seraphim and Cherubim, and how their wings indicated rank. Satan was a Cherubim, and it is assumed that he was the highest ranking Angel, yet the six wings of the Seraphim seem to indicate other wise.

So here are some key questions that I have as a result of this lesson:

1) Was Satan (aka Lucifer) the Federal Head of the Angelic race when he was initially created?

2) Did Satan's fall result in the fall of all Angels as in the case of the Adamic fall?

3) Human Bema does not happen until after resurrection. It is also important to note that all Human Bema happens post-Cross. So, how is it possible that Regenerated-Elect Angels pass through Bema before the juridical justification of the Cross?

4) Is it possible that Satan was never the Federal Head of Angelic race, and therefore Elect Angels never fell? If that is the case, then Elect Angels would not be required to wait for Cross to pass through Bema.


Question #4 would not negate the notion of Angelic Salvation at the Cross, but it would mean that Fallen Angels who chose to believe after the fact would be saved without any possibility of eternal reward. Unlike Angels, man must learn mind of Christ, so salvation is our initiation into the process of Ultimate Sanctification. Angels on the other hand were created with the knowledge of Christ, so their fall might invalidate them for Reward after Redemption.

Any ideas?

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Now you know why Thieme calls it an APPEAL Trial, never mind many excoriate him for it. Yeah, the sentence Matt25:41 pronounced but no Cross? Isn't God unfair? Clearly 1/3 of the other angels thought so, and joined with him.

As for Haylel Ben Schahar being initially Federal head at creation of the angels (which isn't necessarily the same as creation of earth), see Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28.

Yeah, I was thinking about Isaiah 14 & Ezekiel 28. If we think about the human race, Adam is the Federal Head, because we are all genetically linked to him, but can we say that Lucifer begot the Angelic Race?

Clearly Lucifer was the Elite of Elite Angels, but it doesn't mean that he was Federal Head as Adam is to mankind.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

No, he didn't beget them. They were all created at once, within the Gen1:1 Title Statement. But Thieme long speculated based on Job38:7 -- that the angels were there WHEN creation made. So maybe first and all in the same day, or a hiatus, etc.

Next, and related to Trib Timeline:
What if Rapture date instead is based on pre-Israel dating criteria, and God picks an important date more related to initial creation, date angels were created, etc?

But.. calculated so that DURING Trib, the key events hit on JEWISH holidays? For example: don't you find it strange that we get the exact HOUR the Statue is set up in Daniel 12, but that date of itself, doesn't tie back to Rapture as a similar Jewish Holiday? And why wouldn't SATAN want it to hit on a Jewish holiday, since the whole purpose is to fake Ezekiel 40, 2nd Advent?

Part of me doesn't want to bring this up, cuz the calcs you'd have to go through to vet even the idea, will go on until you're old and gray.

For notice: 6.75 days AFTER 1260. So what if 6.75 days after Rapture, it's a Jewish holiday?

Right, so it would make sense that Satan's fall would not trigger a unanimous fall as in the human race.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Okay, so now to your question 4. Satan was federal head, but still there's the reverse interp which Thieme ALSO later had, that the elect angels NEVER sinned. I think he missed the mark on that speculation. Wrote about it here: http://www.brainout.net/LordvSatan2.htm#AngNoSalv. The lessons in question are 92SD, series 376, Lessons 1563 and following, where Thieme suddenly speculates that the angels didn't have salvation. So then the argument in the Trial would be, why do humans get to have salvation but we angels don't?

So then Haylel became disillusioned with God maybe over knowing that the plan for the human race included SAVING them but angels would have no recourse.

Frankly, the longer and earlier position by Thieme seems to fit Hebrews 2 more, idea that if Christ goes lower then pays for all the angels' sins as well (a harder thing to do), since God should be paid for ALL sins, no matter whether angelic or human. So the same usage of 'elect' which for us means SAVED, is applied to them. Consistent jurisprudence, and more relevant then as to why our lives are playing out THEIR APPEAL trial.

Aaaand not to mention the fact that if the angels cannot be saved, then that sort of breaks "grace" and the concept of deus ex machina.

It also compounds the issue of sinning in the ressurection body. Sure we can make the argument that you won't want to based on it being highly undesirable, but it still remains a possibility. If it's not a possibility then bye-bye volition and hello automata. SO, if that happened, would salvation be nullified and lost? I certainly can't find anything about the lake of fire *increasing* members over time. It would make more sense if it eventually *decreased* over the course of eternity future.

I think its possible for Elect Angels to be saved without ever falling in the first place. All they would have to do is believe that Christ died for ALL sins, so they would know that even if they eventually sinned, they would still be saved.

In Adam's case, the promise of salvation was not offered until after the fall, so a pre-fallen Adam could not have believed in something he did not know of.

I just don't know of any other possibility. How could the 24 Angels in Rev 4:4 go through Bema before the Juridicial justification of the Cross actually happened. How could Christ be fit to Judge works without His own works first being judged? The only explanation would be that Elect Angels never fell in the first place, but still believed that Christ paid for all sins (including future sins).

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Okay, well that could work-- so let's try to map it all out:

Elect Angels (indefinite) - indefinitely "saved" with the knowledge of the cross
Fallen Angels (indefinite) - no longer "saved" due to (deliberately) not believing the cross upon sinning
Humans (earth - pre teens) - auto-saved by default / even without believing
Humans (earth - post teens) - required to find the truth to believe and be saved
Humans (ressurection body) - indefinitely "saved" with the knowledge of the cross
Humans (lake of fire TBA) - stuck in the lake of fire until they 'believe'
Fallen Angels (lake of fire TBA) - ???
Note: the pre / post teen is to accommodate for the refractory period: children aren't liable so they're on autosave.
Note: 'lake of fire' of course is not active yet for angels or humans, so that's still pending.

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I believe that would be all of them. The problem I'm facing is... are the fallen angels stuck in the lake of fire--and, how come HUMANS get eternal security / but fallen angels are able to get out of it?

Thieme's late position--I guess--was that the fallen angels (and potentially humanity) were stuck in the lake of fire / but then--WHAT'S THE POINT of keeping them there if they're stuck? God would be more 'just' to permanently delete those souls and forget about it. But if we say He loves everyone and doesn't want to miss a single soul, well, then they're not going to be deleted and have an opportunity for salvation, whenever.

I agree with your map.

My opinion is that it would be inconsistent with God's integrity, immutability, impersonal love, and grace for Him to offer salvation to humans, but not angels. So I think both humans and angels can leave the Lake of Fire upon believing. However, I don't believe either human or angel leaving the Lake of Fire (upon faith) would be eligible for eternal reward, since their works would already have been judged at the White Throne Judgment.

So maybe that's part of what's tripping Satan up. He wants to be glorified above God, and therefore refuses to believe that his arrogance is sin and that his works are filthy rags. Satan thinks that he can be righteous without processing the Righteousness of Christ.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Well, if they never sinned there would be no need for salvation. Problem with the argument that they never sinned is Christ being billed out as the only one Sinless and THEREFORE ABLE to pay for sins.

@Brainout

K. You have a point. But the problem I'm running into is that Satan (a Cherub) was highest of all Angels, yet Isaiah mentions the existence of Seraphim, thereby implying that Elect Angels had already gone through their Bema.

My question is then how could their works be Judged prior to the cross?

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Judged prospectively. Hence the Appeal, as your apt objection would warrant an Appeal stay open at the same time. Judged, but no sentence carried out. Matt25:41 is prediction that it WILL be carried out, so God will win. But that means the Appeal includes accusations of malfeasance against God, hence it's still ongoing while proof God isn't stacking the deck, goes on.

And in the VERY MIDDLE, when Satan should have won cuz Jews rejected Christ as King, what does HE do? Matt16:18, I will build upon myself aka Petra, CHURCH. A body of NOT YET EXISTING believers. Ohh, that's introducing NEW EVIDENCE IN THE MIDDLE OF A TRIAL? Thieme didn't pick up on that. But he's not a lawyer, either. I didn't notice it until some few years ago, hence Part IV of the Thinking Series.

As for seraphim, I believe during the Rev4 exegesis, Thieme explains that's a new class of mature angels arising out of the Civil War they had. Which of course would also still be on appeal.

Juridically, Appeal means a judgment rendered, can be overturned and erased ('ab initio', as if it never happened), if the appeal is won. So now you see why it's such a big deal that Satan & Co. deceive us all.

I was thinking Prospective Bema too, but I didn't know if it a was legitimate argument...But I suppose that is part of Satan's appeal claim too. I can imagine Satan saying, "how can you justify the so-called Elect based on a Salvation Event that hasn't even occurred yet?" Like backing a currency with a commodity that has not been proven valuable yet.

That sheds more light onto why Satan has tried tirelessly to block the fulfillment of the Messianic Prophecies (the nephilim come to mind). Satan wanted to make the basis of Angelic salvation and Angelic Bema unjustifiable, hence the Adamic phase of the Angelic Conflict.

But, here is another question; If Angelic Bema was justifiably Prospective, then why did OT believers have to wait in Abraham's Bosom until Christ's resurrection before entering Heaven? Bema and Abraham's Bosom are two very different things, but they are both dependent on the work of Christ. So maybe God set it up that way to prove the point to Satan, that Christ's value was ALWAYS intrinsic.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

But the Bema hasn't occurred yet. Remember, we're FIRST. So now how does your question reposition?

Ephesians 4:8-9 are on the Ascension, so too Romans 8:11 (if I recall address rightly). So when Christ WON at the Cross, Psalm 110, He TAKES OT out of Abraham's bosom with HIM, but still no Bema yet. We get it first, Rev4. Theirs occurs with the return to Israel, where He rewards the cities, etc. since those surviving Trib are also rewarded then.

Well, Angelic Bema was before human creation, but as far as human Bema goes, I know it is all post resurrection (and Church gets it first).

No, my question is centered around justification in Christ, not Bema. How is God justified in carrying out a Prospective Angelic Bema, when God wouldn't let OT believes enter Heaven until Christ's own resurrection?

Basically, God offered Salvation to Angels and Ultimate Sanctification all prior to Cross. So why not do the same for OT believers. Why make them wait in Abraham's Bosom until Christ's resurrection? I think the reason is to reply to Satan's appeal claim.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Not sure you can say the Angelic BEMA has yet occurred. Some kind of Trial happened, but if on Appeal, it doesn't matter whether anything occurred, it can all be overturned.

So that would apply to justification in Christ, too. It's all subject to repeal. That OT believers waited below decks until Christ actually WON on the Cross might be some Appeal stipulation by Satan, or not. But you can see why it would go that way: the justification is still provided there, even if not in heaven, cuz not in hell.

Thieme often said that there's not enough research on the significance of the Ascension, which is the focus of your question. That they'd go up with Christ was prophesied in the OT (Job? I forget where), so Eph4:8-9 talks back to that. It has a distinct juridical significance, which Thieme kept on trying to delineate. Not sure he ever did complete it.

So think through the issue, what do you think it means, and maybe start a new thread on that, or keep going in the one here?

Well the reason I argue that Angelic Bema has already occured is because the 24 Elders of Rev 4:4 all had golden crowns. My assumption is that they had to pass through Bema to receive those rewards.

When I get more time to think through the ascension, I think I will start a new thread. Thanks for the suggestion

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Okay, maybe I better explain something about Appeal Trials. They are filed like any lawsuit, and until ended, whatever went on before which is subject to appeal, remains. So Cross, heaven, awards pre-Adam, all remain pending completion of the Trial.

AFTER the Trial ends, if Satan wins, then all the foregoing is subject to entire repeal. Depends on what Satan demands as terms. So UNTIL the Appeal completes, nothing happens.

So the Rev4 angels could still have their crowns, etc. pending completion of the Appeal, which is valid especially since God awarded it prior to or PENDING appeal.

These rules are as old as time, just expressed in modern legal terms. Do they make sense?

It's like someone suing you for all your money, but you KEEP your money until and unless the suit is successful.

Yeah, that's actually the point that I was trying to communicate, but sometimes I'm just not articulate enough to put it in text.

So my hypothesis is that Elect Angels had a Prospective Bema (hence crowns), that is still subject to nullification if Satan is successful in proving his case. But, since Adamic history is the appeal trial, OT believers could not enter into Heaven (without violating terms of appeal) until Christ was resurrected, and human Bema must therefore occur after believer's resurrection (since our resurrection is in Christ).

All of that could technically be repealed (if Satan were to win) until the Millennial 1050 is finished and the trial is resolved.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Exactly. You stated it well. So now where do we go from here?