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Issues with 'Deadline Salvation' (no salvation after death) - FrankForum (Frankness IS Forum)

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PostPosted: 15 Oct 2015, 05:18 
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Edited

I can't find anything to indicate that salvation has a deadline, which is a relief. I'm not sure that means any post bema unbelievers will ever choose to believe, but then again; why would God keep the Lake of Fire around unless He knew that atleast some would believe at some point in Eternity?

Maybe in the end, all will be saved. That would be nice.

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PostPosted: 17 Oct 2015, 20:45 
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@Anonynomemon

Try starting at Ezekiel 37, the chapter everyone misreads as being Israel's start in 1948. It's not. Rather, it's about RESURRECTED BELIEVERS. I'm betting it's metered, but no time yet to see. Ezekiel was, along with Jeremiah, 'hired' to lay out the seige for the exiles from the first deportation. I don't know what time period elapsed between his Chapters 1 et seq (which were in 592 BC, part of second deportation), and the start of Chapter 37, but the latter will have a metered dateline.

Daniel 9:24-27 might be a reply to it? Dan9:24-27 is 231 syllables, pattern . That pdf is only a few pages, Hebrew text with footnotes, so you can easily count the syllables. Took me an hour+ to make a video on Dan9:24, wherein I screwed up but got the meter right by the end, . Video of course can be skipped.

Daniel's meter very clearly is the basis for God's numbers in the text (as well as metered) answer in Dan9:24-27, so it makes sense that Ezekiel metered his text, too.

Paul and Mary play on the Dan9:24-27 count of 231, with Mary removing 14 in the Magnificat, and Paul using the 231 for his anaphora in Eph 1:3-14; but these are too complex to explain right now. Point is, the meter is deliberate, so your search might be well met in Ezekiel 37 et seq.


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PostPosted: 17 Oct 2015, 23:45 
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@ Brainout

Well, there's no question in my mind that Ezek 37 is about the very end of the Trib. I don't buy that 1948 political junk.

What I really hope to find are these answers:

>Is Israel's Bema linked to the Baptism of Fire? If not, is the Baptism of Fire a sort of Bema at all? For the world?

>If the common theme continues, it seems that Fire always judges works. Does that mean water judges sin? Why else would the Second Advent mirror Noah's flood so heavily?

>If the Baptism of Fire does mirror Noah's flood, the does that mean the destruction of the Heavens and Earth (by fire) mirrors the flooding of Heavens and Earth before the 6 Day Restoration?

Im not looking for all the answers from you, but this just gives you an idea of what's on my mind. More loaded questions than answers, as usual, lol.

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PostPosted: 17 Oct 2015, 23:59 
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Okay, running with what you wrote, Anonynomemon...

If water judges sin and Noah is prototype of Christ, seed of humanity in him and delivered, then water drowns/washes sin, Christ paid on Cross, Water of the Word washes us of human/sinful thinking. So not judgment but Rx.

Fire parallel would be on what's left, which is works. Nothing useful there, so burning is the only way to get rid of it. Burning trash, so it won't infect. Burning doo-doo, same reason.

Resurrection would be a separate matter, the thing/person saved is separated from the first two.

God promised He'd never again flood, so fire not flood ends; if a mirror to tohu wa bohu in Gen 1 as explained in Isa 45:18-19, that would also be a separate matter, as wouldn't both deal with the Angelic Conflict outcome, 2 Peter 3 and Rev 20ff?

So now the key question to your search: where is Israel in all this? Lumped as part of the believer group versus unbeliever group, or separately handled? Seems like Eze37ff show a separateness, 11 whole chapters on the Mill?

Again, just thinking out loud in an attempt to mimic your flow, see where that leads. Now my brain just ran out. :)


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Okay, well aiwn meaning depends on context. Plural is almost always 'forever', like in Rom 1:25. Singular usually means a dispensational period (though remember Dispensations in Bible aren't like the 'scholars', but the 2100's). So there's that to examine.

More importantly, Christ could pay for all sins on the Cross even if they never cease, since in hell folks keep on sinning, and so too in the Lake of Fire. In finance, we call that an 'annuity' where you pay a single up-front lump sum that keeps on generating INCOME, which then PAYS forever. THAT is what I think the Cross accomplished. So sin CAN go on forever.

That's what I do for a living, calculate what DEPOSITS need to be made for ONGOING INCOME in pension plans. For humans, it's a finite calculation; but a deposit invested that never is touched (principal is never reduced) -- can generate income forever.

For there's also the opportunity cost (economic term) of all the SHORTFALL in Romans 3:23. Part of the cost of sin, is the LIMITATION on soul growth, which of course lasts forever, too.

So God builds FACTORIES from His Son; for yes, the total number of SOULS (angelic and human) are FINITE. We are DIVIDENDS of Him, so the noble deposit (Thieme's translation of 2Tim1:14, meaning MD) can go into our heads.. now, and in eternity. So think: a deposit INVESTED, yields income. Christ paid the WHOLE THING, and as a result we can even GET His Thinking. Which, initially are DIVIDENDS INVESTED, resulting in more income.. forever. Just like Christ said in John 19:30, tetelestai -- as you'll hear Thieme translate, 'Finished in the past with results that go on forever', aka perfect tense.

So the whole point of living post-salvation, is to get that 'noble deposit' (kalos paratheke, 2Tim1:14, Thieme translation), of His Thinking, which produces mini- 'Christ in you, the confidence of glory.' All life is about getting saved then getting Doctrine to live in your head, X+Y+Z, so in Z, we are 'factories' of pleasing 'smell' of His Thinking, real worship, Romans 12:1's logiken latreian. THINKING, not body stuff. Wrong thinking=wrong action, anyhow.

In finance, it's called 'present value'. A sum NOW which will be INVESTED and as a result will keep on growing and produce income. When you buy a 'lump sum annuity', that's why what you pay is so much less than what it will produce: the insurance company will be making money ON that lump sum you pay, enough to profit and pay you the annuity, too. That's what I think happened at the Cross, because of the terminology in Isaiah 53:12 'wa yehalleq shalal' (sorry, I can't type with Hebrew letters on this computer).

We can see the proof of this in our own lives, even with a simple Faith Rest. In the past, some Bible verse 'got deposited' in your soul, you believed it; later on, you recall it over and over and LIVE ON its promise. The deposit, might have only occurred once, but the 'income' occurs every time you recall (John 14:26) and USE it to keep going. Isaiah 54:1, Neh 8:10, etc.

Else the whole Bible makes no sense, for God must be paid for all sin, and that means the entire cost of creation, in heaven or hell, including angels (fallen angels still sin), etc.


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Ok. I can see a lump sum payment generating income for Eternity, but wouldn't Jesus have to pay an infinitely large lump sum as an infinite number of sins are imputed to Him on the cross. That seems to create a Time Paradox. How could He say, "it is finished", when sins will be produced in Eternity without ceasing???

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The VALUE of ONE thought versus the small value of a sin thought... think about that.

In finance, it's called 'leverage'. A small thing being made to do a BIG job, and Hebrews 2:10 is your chapter on how the sins COMPLETED His Own Soul's Growth. Thieme spent a lot of time on the mistranslated 'perfected' (teleiow; really, it's not a mistranslation, for in legal English it means to complete a contract, which is Isaiah 53:10-11).

For now I 'get it' why we aren't all obliterated post-Cross. DIVIDENDS.


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I get that thought value might be more than enough to cover all sins, but wasn't Christ judged for EACH individual personal sin (plus original sin). So maybe thoughts could pay the whole, but each sin still must be accounted for. If endless supply of sin to document and judge, then how can it be finished. I just can't wrap my mind around that without producing a time paradox.

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Well, you convert to VALUE. Yes, paying for each individual sin, but what is the PRICE? It has a value. So His counterthinking on the Cross (b'daato yatsdiq , tzadik AVDI l'rabbim, Isa 53:11) has a VALUE because it's HIS thought. Kinda like a minute of a CEO's time is paid/worth more than a minute of the guy moving boxes in the warehouse.

Ponder that, see if it helps.

Let me put it another way: I can spend five minutes saving a client $300,000 in taxes. I've become so skilled over time, that's all it takes me to do that job well. Yet it also costs me five minutes to load the dishwasher, which pays/buys, nearly nothing.


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I agree that Christ's payment was an annuity, and that His thoughts hold more value than the sins themselves. Therefore the change goes into Escrow. Cost of sins is something that Father determines.

What concerns me is, what would Jesus' receipt of payment look like? Every time Satan accuses us of any given sin, or when we use 1John1:9, we are citing a sin on a receipt. If people go on sinning FOREVER, then that receipt is constantly being update. Regardless of cost, how could an ONGOING and INFINITE number of sins be IMPUTED to Christ on the cross, if IT IS FINISHED. I can't make sense of it. You can say that Time and Eternity are different, but they both still pass one day at a time.

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Okay, let's try one more time. A HUGE PAYMENT IN THE PAST keeps on earning an income to pay CURRENT EXPENSES. The sins, occur future of the time paid, so that past payment also earned its own money too. So when in the future some expense is charged against the income, the remainder is still way bigger than the charge. So the charges can keep on going forever.

We in heaven won't sin in eternity, but of course those now in hell and in Lake of Fire, still will.

Does this help?


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I'm afraid it doesn't help.

Its not the actual cost and payment that I don't understand. Its the imputation of unlimited sins to a finite point in history that I cant understand. It suggests that new sins from (eternity-future) will continuously be imputed to the cross back in 30 AD. If there where a FINITE number of sins, then I could see the work being finished, but with an INFINITE number of sins comes an INFINITE number of IMPUTATIONS.

If you feel like I'm thinking in circles, then don't feel like you need to explain any further. Whatever it is that I am misunderstanding, I'm sure God will show me the answer when the time is right. Sorry if I am missing your point.

Thanks for explaining the annuity though. I never thought of it that way.

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Okay, well the annuity analogy is how it SOLVES. A capital base untouched gives off an income. So the key is, will that INCOME be enough to last.. here, forever? So the sins foreknown, have a certain EXPENSE value, but so too, the INCOME on the CAPITAL Christ 'deposited' while on the Cross IN THE PAST.

So really, it's very simple: God is Omnisicient, VALUES THE COST of ongoing sins, VALUES THE CAPITAL Christ pays, and says the latter is ENOUGH. It's His call on the VALUE to HIM.

Christ's thinking is Priceless, Isaiah 55:8-9. So all sin whenever it keeps occurring, is less. We are getting deposits of His Thinking forever, so our capital bases grow too, and that offsets the VALUE of the sins ENOUGH in God's RULING.

So He converted the VALUE of the negativity, the VALUE of Christ's thinking FOR ALL TIME, Hebrews 10:14. It's the VALUE CONVERSION, not the iteration of the occurrences, that makes it work.

Remember when you were doing the meter for Matt 24? YOU experienced it only for the time you did it. GOD experienced it forever and will KEEP ON experiencing it. Worth BILLIONS, even commercially. So how much more, to God?


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Sorta. He converted the sins, into a VALUE; that's what makes for the PAYMENT calculation.

Think of the difference between barter and a money economy. This computer cost me $200. It's really the computer, but VALUED between buyer and seller, so it is really PURCHASED. I bought it with money, not in trade goods. How I paid for it and got it, could have been handled differently, but it's a real purchase, and I have the real Dell 6410 laptop.

Where you're hung up is, you think of the sins occurring forever, but the payment is for the PERSON, and like a capital base the PERSON's sins have a 'present value' to be paid. That then is imputed to Christ, and the VALUE of His Counterthinking bought 'you', me, everyone (and I bet, all the angels too). THAT is a finite number of PERSONS so the cost can be paid though the thoughts go on forever.

So that's like a bank account. Each PERSON's thoughts are 'dividends' from the soul; the soul, is the bank account. Thoughts good, bad, high, low -- yield on investment. Christ paid for the whole investment, so the PERSON is free to exist and be whatever he will be, heaven or hell, mature or immature, etc.

So: pretend tomorrow you inherited a BILLION dollars. Pretend further, like in Matt 25, that every DAY that billion doubles. You cannot outspend it, no matter what you do.

Now let's talk infinity. That's God's NATURE. It's a stasis (think of the math). An equilibrium. Progression WITHIN, but as a SYSTEM, it's a stasis, like a capital base. Christ is ALWAYS on the Cross, to Omniscience. So His Payment is always Matt4:4, always occurring, so every future sin WHEN it occurs, has already been paid for.

Does this help?


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PostPosted: 07 May 2016, 15:28 
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Joined: 25 Aug 2015, 22:51
Posts: 880
Yes. That does help. Sorry for bing such a pain in the neck. Sometimes it takes a lot for certain ideas to sink in.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


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PostPosted: 07 May 2016, 16:50 
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Joined: 10 Aug 2015, 16:03
Posts: 1845
You're not a pain in the neck. The same questions used to plague me, too.


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