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PostPosted: 22 Nov 2015, 01:04 
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Joined: 14 Sep 2015, 13:11
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Oukexergon wrote:
Who Am I?
“I was saved while believing I was dying for my own sins and Christ was not.”
The criminal on the cross: “Do you not fear God? This man has done nothing wrong to deserve death (by Caesar or God). We are suffering the due penalty (death) for our crimes. Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”

Jesus: “Today, you will be with me in paradise.”

Since the “death in our place” or “wrath of God on Him instead of us” and “spiritual death” is totally absent, and the criminal believing he was suffering for his own offenses at the hands of God through Caesar, how was he saved by believing and making professions about himself and Christ that were totally against and the EXACT OPPOSITE of the penal substitute gospel?

Source: http://www.principledlegalstandard.org/who_am_i_saved/

So Ouky's position is that the thief on the cross believed he was paying for his own sins and that Christ was not. Okay... but she starts to cherry pick and ignores the conversation that was had between both of the thieves. She also adds "by Caesar or God" as she's a unitarian, but that's a whole separate can of worms so we'll ignore it. Here is the whole passage instead of vaguely paraphrasing pieces:

Quote:
Criminal #1 doesn't believe Christ is messiah:
KJV Luke 23:39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
NIV Luke 23:39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!"
BGT Luke 23:39 Εἷς δὲ τῶν κρεμασθέντων κακούργων ἐβλασφήμει αὐτὸν λέγων· οὐχὶ σὺ εἶ ὁ χριστός; σῶσον σεαυτὸν καὶ ἡμᾶς.

Criminal #2 does believe Christ is messiah:
KJV Luke 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
NIV Luke 23:40 But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence?
BGT Luke 23:40 ἀποκριθεὶς δὲ ὁ ἕτερος ἐπιτιμῶν αὐτῷ ἔφη· οὐδὲ φοβῇ σὺ τὸν θεόν, ὅτι ἐν τῷ αὐτῷ κρίματι εἶ;

Criminal #2 states Christ WON'T be "save them" from that situation as they just their just reward for their earthly actions:
KJV Luke 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
NIV Luke 23:41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."
BGT Luke 23:41 καὶ ἡμεῖς μὲν δικαίως, ἄξια γὰρ ὧν ἐπράξαμεν ἀπολαμβάνομεν· οὗτος δὲ οὐδὲν ἄτοπον ἔπραξεν.

Criminal #2 believes in Christ, but is under the impression that belief is not enough:
NIV Luke 23:42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. "
BGT Luke 23:42 καὶ ἔλεγεν· Ἰησοῦ, μνήσθητί μου ὅταν ἔλθῃς εἰς τὴν βασιλείαν σου.
BYZ Luke 23:42 Καὶ ἔλεγεν τῷ Ἰησοῦ, Μνήσθητί μου, κύριε, ὅταν ἔλθῃς ἐν τῇ βασιλείᾳ σου.

Christ tells Criminal #2 (but not criminal #1!) that he will be in paradise AS A RESULT OF HIS BELIEF (not works):
KJV Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
NIV Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."
BGT Luke 23:43 καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ· ἀμήν σοι λέγω, σήμερον μετ᾽ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ.


When the first criminal says "if you're Christ, save yourself and save us"-- IT WAS RHETORICAL. That's just it, he *didn't believe* Christ was messiah (and if he was the messiah, he wanted Christ to "save them" from that situation--as in save them all from the cross so they could continue living on the earth, not in terms of salvation from sin). So then the other criminal says that they're both having their just earthly punishment, whereas Christ did nothing wrong (sinless)-- because he believed Christ was messiah, otherwise he wouldn't defend Christ. He also does not believe he is paying for his own sins, because otherwise he would believe he would be going to paradise if that was the case, Christ wouldn't have had to TELL him. Duh. He simply stated that them being crucified was their just end for what they've done, nothing to do with salvation.

So far this has nothing to do with Tim & Ouky's "deliverance from the satanic accusation", because the 2nd criminal just admitted Christ was sinless and the messiah. Affirming that His death on the cross had nothing to do with any of His actions... so then WHAT was it for? PAYMENT FOR MAN'S SALVATION.

Finally the 2nd criminal doesn't believe that his belief is enough (and subsequently nothing he can pay for), so then he tells Christ "remember me". Christ then reaffirms and states "you will be in paradise" (as a result of his belief).

And now we'll get to Ouky shouting "BUT THERE IS NO MENTION OF A SPIRITUAL DEATH", that would be this verse:
Quote:
KJV Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
NIV Luke 23:46 Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.
BGT Luke 23:46 καὶ φωνήσας φωνῇ μεγάλῃ ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν· πάτερ, εἰς χεῖράς σου παρατίθεμαι τὸ πνεῦμά μου. τοῦτο δὲ εἰπὼν ἐξέπνευσεν.


Which is mirrored to this one:
Quote:
KJV John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
NIV John 19:30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
BGT John 19:30 ὅτε οὖν ἔλαβεν τὸ ὄξος [ὁ] Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν· τετέλεσται, καὶ κλίνας τὴν κεφαλὴν παρέδωκεν τὸ πνεῦμα.


Christ didn't give up His spirit until *AFTER* He said "it is finished", and SOON AS HE SAID THAT, SINS WERE PAID FOR. DUH.

But now Tim A. has to reaffirm his Ouky:
Tim Alleman wrote:
Peter’s NCIS crime scene debriefing in Acts chapter 2, and again in Acts 3, contains nothing at all about the penal substitute. Rather he says “you murdered the author of life, but you were ignorant as well as your leaders.”


Quote:
KJV Acts 3:14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
NIV Acts 3:14 You disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked that a murderer be released to you.
BGT Acts 3:14 ὑμεῖς δὲ τὸν ἅγιον καὶ δίκαιον ἠρνήσασθε καὶ ᾐτήσασθε ἄνδρα φονέα χαρισθῆναι ὑμῖν,

KJV Acts 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
NIV Acts 3:15 You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this.
BGT Acts 3:15 τὸν δὲ ἀρχηγὸν τῆς ζωῆς ἀπεκτείνατε ὃν ὁ θεὸς ἤγειρεν ἐκ νεκρῶν, οὗ ἡμεῖς μάρτυρές ἐσμεν.


Tim at this point is so stubborn (and blind) that he can't even see that the Prince of Life *is* the one who has paid for our sin.

Quote:
KJV Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith belief in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
NIV Romans 3:25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood--to be received by faith belief. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished--
BGT Romans 3:25 ὃν προέθετο ὁ θεὸς ἱλαστήριον διὰ [τῆς] πίστεως ἐν τῷ αὐτοῦ αἵματι εἰς ἔνδειξιν τῆς δικαιοσύνης αὐτοῦ διὰ τὴν πάρεσιν τῶν προγεγονότων ἁμαρτημάτων

KJV Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
NIV Revelation 19:13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.
BGT Revelation 19:13 καὶ περιβεβλημένος ἱμάτιον βεβαμμένον αἵματι, καὶ κέκληται τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ ὁ λόγος τοῦ θεοῦ.

KJV John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
NIV John 6:40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."
BGT John 6:40 τοῦτο γάρ ἐστιν τὸ θέλημα τοῦ πατρός μου, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ θεωρῶν τὸν υἱὸν καὶ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον, καὶ ἀναστήσω αὐτὸν ἐγὼ [ἐν] τῇ ἐσχάτῃ ἡμέρᾳ.

So there's a common theme with Tim and Ouky, they both claim "it's not there" when they just can't (or refuse) to see it.


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PostPosted: 22 Nov 2015, 07:01 
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Joined: 10 Aug 2015, 16:03
Posts: 1831
Thank you, hupostasis.

Wow. Just wow. Now I know why the guy can't write in short paragraphs. Why, he meanders so much and conflates opposite or unrelated data. Brain turned to mush.

Where did you find these quotes?

  • So now if he can pay for his own sins, there's no need for Christ in the first place.
  • LEARNING won't pay for sins. BELIEVING won't pay for sins.
  • For once the person has sinned, it's like moldy bread: the many more spores shoot through the whole of the bread, but are too small to see and ALL the bread is moldy.
  • God's Thinking can't be developed in a state of sin.
  • God's Thinking can't be developed if you have no spiritual life.
  • That's why Christ is GOD-man, SINLESS, and hence HAS Spiritual Life, so God's Thinking can go into His Soul.

Oh well, stopping now. The above is only a partial list.


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PostPosted: 22 Nov 2015, 08:43 
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Joined: 14 Sep 2015, 13:11
Posts: 383
brainout wrote:
Where did you find these quotes?


So the website is built extremely fragmented (perhaps I'm more critical since I actually do programming and multimedia design), but not everything is laid out in plain view. If you go to the source page I provided it has Tim's comment with the "Who am I" statement. If you click the "Answer" URL it goes to the answer (presumably created by Ouky, but Ouky could be simply referring to that hidden page that Tim created). Who knows. Gobble gobble gobble.

The blog entries can be read from the author pages individually to make it easier:
http://www.principledlegalstandard.org/ ... ukexergon/
http://www.principledlegalstandard.org/ ... m-alleman/

I'm personally anticipating the upcoming "Extremist religious views against Children and the innocent". :turban:

My favourite though is this blog page here, where Tim presents a quote from his book like scripture, and then comments on it, hahaha:
http://www.principledlegalstandard.org/ ... teousness/

Image

Gobble gobble gobble GOBBLE!


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PostPosted: 22 Nov 2015, 13:21 
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Joined: 10 Aug 2015, 16:03
Posts: 1831
Yikes. I just finally clicked on a link you gave to the site. Are we sure they aren't self-satirizing? Because it reads like MADTV or Saturday Night Life or Rapture Palooza.

If not self-satirizing, then like Ruckman and edwardpf123, they are fixated on Thieme so now on me.. and anyone else who's studied under him and won't cave into their (unwitting) satire. Okie dokey.

Just in time for Thanksgiving here in the US, gobble gobble!


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