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 Post subject: rapture imminent?
PostPosted: 03 Oct 2015, 08:01 
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Saw this odd video of a gal claiming the rapture is about to happen soon, and is starting to claim random world events as key points as found in Revelation *sigh*:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCSQNc9e9tw

Here are some paraphrased snippets:
Quote:
and if we study the prophecies they will lead us to an exact date when this event (the rapture) will take place


Nope. There's really no excuse for someone who simply wants the thrill of conspiracies and excitement to claim such a thing. NO one knows when the rapture will happen. Based upon what events surround it when it happens and how God operates time, it won't be happening any time soon:

Quote:
Mark 13:32 Περὶ δὲ τῆς ἡμέρας ἐκείνης ἢ τῆς ὥρας οὐδεὶς οἶδεν, οὐδὲ οἱ ἄγγελοι ἐν οὐρανῷ οὐδὲ ὁ υἱός, εἰ μὴ ὁ πατήρ.
Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knows no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.


Quote:
God's calendar is going by the sighting of the new moon in Israel

Nope. It's solar, but not by a sighting of a moon.

Quote:
..which means the true day of atonement on his calendar is september 25th

What?! And then she extrapolates further on this saying things that Obama has done are leading up further towards the Rapture. I'm sorry, but Obama has nothing to do with the book of Revelation, and if you think so you don't have enough bible doctrine to parse why the rapture is not going to happen 'now'.

Just thought I'd post this up as a public statement so in a handful of years down the road, they'll disprove themselves by time itself. Anyone remember the 12/12/12 hype? I remember in 2006 some Christians claiming the rapture was happening in 2012, it hasn't. And they (hopefully) abandoned that poisonous thinking.

I couldn't watch the whole video since I lost interested after hearing the first bits.


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 Post subject: Re: rapture imminent?
PostPosted: 03 Oct 2015, 09:18 
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LOL you state the case well, as usual. BTW, try using the 'glow' in the Full Editor if you ever want to highlight Hebrew. Be sure to also specify a font color for the text, as the 'glow' default is light, so in some skins won't play well. But it does work. You can also use the highlight (or hilight, my own BBCode which preceded the Editor upgrade). Shouldn't matter that the Hebrew is left to right, just paint it and then click on the code.


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 Post subject: Re: rapture imminent?
PostPosted: 03 Oct 2015, 17:56 
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Not disagreeing with your conclusion, but Mark 13:32 (just like the famous Matt 24:36) is specifically about the Second Advent aka Day of the Lord. Why would no man know the day or hour of the Second Advent? Look at Matt 24:22. The Tribulation will be cut short for the sake of the elect. Now, between Daniel and Revelation, the Tribulation is pretty well mapped out for us, so it's likely that it will be shortened by a matter of hours.

To further confirm that Christ was talking about the Second Advent and not the Rapture, Matt 24:37 says those days will be as in the days of Noah. What happened in Noah's day? Noah was alerted to begin loading the Ark 7 days before the Flood was to occur. By the end of the 7 days, he was comfortably resting in the Ark while the rest of the unsuspecting world gets washed away.

The 7 day preparation period for loading the Ark correlates to the 70th Week. After the Rapture, the Elect will have 7 years to prepare themselves for the return of Christ. They prepare by believing in Christ, learning Doctrine and heeding the Signs. The rest of the unsuspecting world will be burned away in a fiery Flood.

This is just how I understand it. Maybe I'm wrong, but Matt 24:37 is directly connected to verses 40 and 41. The people who are taken while working in the field and grinding at the mill are not believers and they certainly aren't going to heaven. At least, that's what my pastor taught me.

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 Post subject: Re: rapture imminent?
PostPosted: 03 Oct 2015, 20:05 
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Once the Rapture has occurred, then the 7 years is countable. Until Rapture happens, you can't know when it ends. That's the point. The Lord is warning them they won't know, because He foreknows He will be rejected, so the old timetable will be missed, and Church will be inserted. For He told them all that too, back in Matthew 16:18, I will build the Church upon Myself, epi tautei tei petrai.

Hebrews 11:39-40 ties in. The Lord was talking before Church existed. So when He was talking, there was still a chance the old timetable would play out. Paul and the other writers of the NT were all still using the old timetable to count to the Millennium, too. For the old timetable was, that the Trib would begin 4200 from Adam's Fall, minus 7 years, just as Daniel had calculated and the Lord through Gabriel confirmed.

That's the duality. Pre-Church, the entire timeline was laid out, like a series of 'appointments' (Hebrew keyword l'moedth). Church had to be inserted because the appointments were missed. So how long Church, was not given. After Church, 7 years remained.

The above is just a summary of the extensive backup in the vimeo videos, which I presume you know of already. Those videos show how and where in Bible, this timeline is used and tracked, in every book of the OT and NT (well, at least the first chapter, and I've not documented ALL the 1st chapters of the OT on video, yet).

Of course, the above can and will always be, debated. But the numbers bear it out, assuming I counted the syllables correctly. That's a forensic thing anyone can objectively check or dispute.


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 Post subject: Re: rapture imminent?
PostPosted: 03 Oct 2015, 21:10 
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I dont think the Lord was commenting on whether or not the Church would be inserted, or how long that would take during the Olivet Discourse. From the context of the discussion taking place, the "imminency statement" was made in reference to the Second Advent. Those waiting at the end of the Tribulation are told to watch for the specific signs: Red moon, black sun, then total darkness. These are the signs of our Lord's return. The point is that no one will know what time of day it will happen. Morning, evening, midnight? But it will be somewhere between day 364 and 365 of the 7th Tribulation year.

Like I said, I'm not here to disagree with the imminent rapture doctrine, or to lend creedence to any false prophets. I simply think its a stretch to assume that the Lord was talking about anything else other than His return at the Second Advent.

If we are to insist that the Rapture is imminent, then we must look elsewhere in scripture...that is, in my fallible opinion of course.

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 Post subject: Re: rapture imminent?
PostPosted: 03 Oct 2015, 21:47 
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Well, Anonynomemon, Matthew 24 is metered. So yeah it is a timeline. First and Second Advents and the Tribulation itself, are all originally and still Jewish; were all timed. And, tracked for that reason. As a calendar. As appointments. Jews knew that then and today's Jewish calendar is unfortunately a garbled version of that tracking, which you can Google to learn about: the Seder Olam Rabbah. Somewhere along the line, the Jews forgot how to tell what time it was, at least by the time of Josephus, who uses the errant SOR for his day. There was a competing Book of Jubilees which was also really bad, but popular. Of course, I'm assuming you know the Zohar was invented about 1200 years later.

The Bible timelines were done like a prophecy GPS. Countdown to Millennium, to Messiah, to the end of the 2100 years allotted to the Jews, and make up for the fact that 2100 years started 54 years early, so that 54 of 2100 years were still owed to Gentiles. So the meter is always accounting the time. So Matthew 24 is designed to show how God will make up and keep the Time. That's why Daniel 9 was metered, to account for Israel's past and future time, and that's why the Lord uses meter here, to show how the promise (=seven), would be kept.

That meter will be covered in future vids (not necessarily my own), still trying to understand what pattern the Lord is using. I'm not the one working on that meter. I used to be the only one who understood it, but the FACT of the meter has been out for seven years now -- I first learned it by mistake in Isaiah in 2008, full playlist is in Youtube, smaller playlist in vimeo -- and others are working on it now too. Whether they agree with my interp or not, I don't know. All I know is that the fact of the meter's existence, is proven well enough to spend more time on it; others are metering other passages, testing them. Matthew 24 is one of those.

For Trib's Start was a known date, pre Church. He was scheduled to die 57 years before the Mill. 7 for Trib, last 7. 50 for Jubilee time to harvest the gentiles, based on the 1050 which is the basic civilization unit for time, the last 50 being reserved for intensive evangelism, a trend of history.

So:
1. He was supposed to die at age 40, and everyone was tracking that since Moses in Genesis 1 and Psalm 90. Talmud Sanhedrin 98-99 still mentioned it, since of course they don't acknowledge Christ as Messiah, post His Death.

    So now look at Daniel 9 again: if enough Israel had accepted Him as Messiah, then there would have been a civil war with the Sanhedrin, who weren't accepting Him in any case -- so then He would have been crucified anyway, and the Temple destroyed. So the 62nd week was supposed to end that way:
  • He's crucified, end 62nd week;
  • then, 50 years culminating in the destruction of the Temple, the hiatus in the grammar of Dan 9:26 compared to 27 (the 50 is Gentile time, so is not part of Promise Time to the Jews, so is not part of the 490).
  • Then the Trib, as an outcome of the 50 years ending with the destruction of the Temple, so that Daniel 11:35ff now fits in, whoever the Jewish ruler then was gonna make a pact with Rome, to vanquish his other local enemies. (Or something similar. I'm still working out the details. Temple does not have to be standing for the Daniel 9:27 sacrifices to be made, so when does it go down? Just after Messiah dies, sometime after that, or at Trib mid-point? For sacrifices stopping is the key to Dan9:27: but sacrifices were made post-Moses and pre Temple completion, while travelling or on the site where building was to begin, see Ezra 3 and before that, Joshua, Judges, Samuel.)

    But instead, He dies in the 61st week, at the hand of the Sanhedrin appealing to Rome, with not enough accepting Him as Messiah so now Time is In Breach. The Temple the Temple Depicted down, so now the Temple Depicting goes down too. So John will be writing 7 years after the Temple goes down (in his own meter, his gospel; replace the 'htm' with pdf for readable Greek).

2. For He had to be born 97 years before the Millennium, but originally it was to be 94 years, since Abraham supermatured 54 years prior to the expiry of Gentile Time (2100 years post-Adam's fall). That, because Noah's 490-year time grant ran out, and Abraham HAD to mature by then. Else Time would have ended. All this is obvious from the begats in Gen 5, 7, 11, 15, 17 if you crunch the math.

3. But the Temple started 3.5 years late, 1Kings 6:1; was supposed to start as soon as David died, 2Sam7:12. So now 53.5 (rounded to 54 in the meters, as you cannot split a syllable) gets elongated to 57 (which in the meter is 56, the most common meter in the Bible -- with Daniel pregnantly using 58 to show missed appointment due to Manasseh). So that's why God uses 57 and 54 meters in His Reply to Daniel in 9:24-27 (excessively long video on that, here). Clever, 54 is a Trinity meter (3x3x6). Paul plays on this, but that's another discussion of great length already covered in Ephesians1REPARSED, search on 231. Mary played on it first, deducting the 14 from God's 231 in her meter, so I guess that's why Paul plays on it to tag Mary and Daniel at the same time. (PDF copy of REPARSED has readable Greek, click here.)

4. So to make up for that, Messiah has to be born 3.5 years earlier, so instead of dying 54 years prior to 4200 from Adam's fall, he has to die 57 years prior, which is the 1000th anniversary of David's death. But Israel rejected Him, so He actually dies 64 years prior, hence the extra 7 was as originally told Daniel, spent on taking down the Temple -- but the original seven years for the Trib, remained. Hence Church had to be inserted, and rapture is unpredictable.

So the point is, the entire timeline of when the Trib was supposed to begin and end pre-Church, was known, and watched. The 'Seder Olam Rabbah' is all garbled now, but it was a calendar some ancient Jew(s) created to keep track of this timeline. I can't tell when it became garbled, only that by the time Josephus wrote, it was.

    One of many gaps in the accounting, is to account for when the SOR went bad, to find its initial or earliest version, which predates Messiah's birth. For if we can find that, hopefully there will be collateral text to show they knew the meter, too. That's my big concern, trying to find extra-Biblical material showing that the meter was known. It's obvious in Bible, but outside of Bible, where is there text showing it was used? One can argue it's not needed, since the Bible is proof enough. But still, how they used the meter would be invaluable.
Doesn't invalidate your statement, but does elaborate on the duality of KNOWN DATE versus due to Israel's rejection and Church's insertion, UNKNOWN Date. Matthew 24 takes both into account.

And of course, the above is subject to dispute, but so far I can't find any contradictions or true discrepancies. The problems are more like multiple answers for the same numbers (i.e., WHICH extra 7 or 3.5 starting WHEN, as there are several going all the way back to Jacob at Haran).


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 Post subject: Re: rapture imminent?
PostPosted: 04 Oct 2015, 03:01 
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@ Brainout

To your knowledge, how many other people are working on this 'meter'? Is it a joint effort? Will there be a joint disclosure in the near future? That would be thrilling.

To be "frank", I just don't see the "imminency doctrine" when it comes to the Rapture. Contrary to countless interpretations, I just don't see it taught in the Bible consistently. The Bible utilizes constant repetition to communicate knowledge. I just don't see that level of repetition in repect to the "imminent Rapture"...that is once you accurately and isagogically categorize Matthew 24:36 within its own context.

One way or another, why would it even matter?
If one person knew over another, what would be changed?

For a person in your position, (one who can observe this prophetic meter), you never know if you could be sitting on the answer (or the means to find the answer) this whole time. Or maybe not, but the possibility can not be ruled out until the Biblical position is firmly established. At this point, Matt 24:36 and Mark 13:32 does not up hold any form of Rapture doctrine, whether imminent or not.

Not trying to be "THAT GUY" here, but someone's got to ask the annoying questions, :grin:

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 Post subject: Re: rapture imminent?
PostPosted: 04 Oct 2015, 05:07 
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Sorry my reply posts are almost always long, but your questions require comprehensive answers. Your questions are never annoying, and even if they were, ask. Challenge. Dispute. Insult. That's the purpose of FrankForum, so we don't have to walk on eggshells with each other. Honesty is refreshing, as is verbal fencing or making nice. Meaning it, either way. Not, hypocrisy.

As to how many others are working on this, I don't know. I'm guessing about 12, maybe more. For every 100 who listen, watch my videos or read my webpages, I'll get one emailer. So over the last few years maybe 12+ people have offered ideas on the meter or asked questions, and I don't know who they are. A few send me samples of the metering they've done, and that's how I know about Matthew 24. It was on my to do list, but I haven't parsed it myself yet.

As far as 'imminency', that's another question altogether. Bible does use a keyterm you could conclude as 'imminent', Greek Rapture tachu, which in Mark is engus and chiefly (42 times!) euthus. Videos on the Markan usage begin here. Again, those are Rapture keyterms pan NT. You'll see that if you just search on them and read the context. See also Hebrews 11:39-40, which is the legal criterion for the Rapture, we have to complete first, for Israel's time to resume.

These terms really mean 'next in sequence' without predictability as to when it will come. So the idea of imminency comes from the fact you don't know when. Someone's coming to visit, you can't say when, you can only say it will happen. So, connotation of military surprise attack (tachu), or mere next-ness with no predictable intervening event (engus), happening straightaway next (euthus). A thing that is 'next' with nothing intervening has no implication of nearness in time, but rather nextness alone.

Well, that's apt because Israel's time went on hold, the criterion for the Rapture is bodies developed Per Father's Discretion (John 17, Eph 4:12-13), not how long. Opposite of the covenantal time formula for Israel, which had been fixed. In fact, because fixed the 7 years is overhanging. So what was supposed to be 50 years has become groundhog day, which I guess accounts for why Paul's meter is 434 (like Daniel's) in his meter about the history of Church trends. Which videos are incredibly accurately satirical, ending at Odovocer (when the latter got his prophecy he'd be great).

    I mean for crying out loud, he plays the game on how Augustus (father of Rome, get it) -- was deified, timing the syllables 'kuriou' to end in the year of Augustus' DEATH! (Eulogetos ho theos kai pater tou kuriou hemon Iesou Christou).

    The Bible words used are so biting, Paul chooses to place an eta in thelematos for each of three Emperor's deaths whose successors undid what the predecessors accomplished. THAT kind of satire.

    You get it, right? Greek thelematos means 'Will, Desire, Pleasure'. Every dying emperor has such a will, parallel to Hebrews 9-11, which hadn't been written yet but is written to play on the Ephesians meter. So notice: Emperor dies, has Will, new Emperor designated, undoes Will of the Prior. So the point is, that man's will is not done, but God's. Very biting.

    The dying emperors were Trajan, Macrinus, Diocletian. Hadrian undid all of Trajan's territorial gains, the 2nd group of Severans took over from usurping Macrinus who had killed Caracalla son of Severus, and Constantine undid the dream of Diocletian.

    Shocking stuff. Not believable until you go through it yourself. And then, even after you do. Every day I just shake my head. That's been going on five years, now.

So now, back to Mark 13 and Matt24. As you'll see in those videos above for Mark, he suddenly stops using euthus. He quotes Matthew 24:32 in Mark 13:28, using engus, which is a spatial term, and the actual words connote season. When a season (dispensation) ends. Summer always follows spring, was always associated with harvesting, and particularly harvesting the Gentiles: but how long does 'summer' last? Now go back and look at Mark 11:3-13, another fig tree. That was the last time he used euthus. Of course, Mark is writing in the Year of the Four Emperors and Israel is already surrounded with troops, just as Jesus had warned in Matthew 24:32 (in context).

    See the tie? No engus nor euthus, but already imminent, as at any time suddenly those troops might storm the city. Titus had been trying to negotiate a settlement, but the Jews inside were in civil war with each other. Surely you know the story. So Mark is telling you how to use Matthew's text and commenting on imminency. By means of leaving out his own common keyword at the very time he writes, since Matthew 24 was operational at the time he writes. So much for all those who claim Mark wrote the first gospel!

So now why is imminency so important? You wonder if it makes a difference. Well, yeah. Your death is imminent. But you don't think about that, until and unless you're sick, or you had a near brush with death, or someone close to you experiences those things.

Seriously: for all of us, death is the 'next' thing to happen. Alive, then dead. But we are used to thinking as Israel did, that it will be a long time away, which in their case was usually true: and look what happened. They stopped caring. As far as they were concerned, His Arrival though timed from Genesis through Malachi to the very DAY (Haggai 2, Chanukah birth prophesied) -- all that, was sudden to them, as they long since messed up or ignored their 'appointments'.

    So, we have none. Can be today, before I finish typing. 1000 years from now. And all that garbage on TBN about predicting when the Rapture will happen (theme of the OP), well.. those people aren't even paying attention to imminency, either. So look how wasted are their spiritual lives, always drooling over historical events, which is as anti-Biblical as you can get.

    Then you have the preterists. They deny the Rapture. Or, the mid-Trib people, who think (how, I can't fathom) that Rapture is mid-Trib, or end of Trib, or some other nonsense. So they just ignore it all. Not good. Imminency means you can get caught flat-footed, like the foolish virgins, always mistaking the spiritual life for hail fellow well met, rather than learning and living on Bible under your right teacher, whoever HE (never a 'she').. is.
So yeah, it matters to get this doctrine right. You can die today. Rapture can happen today. What if it does? Would you live differently? If so, then live that way.. now (another keyword for Church age in Bible, is 'now'). For Rapture, is 'next'. Next prophetical event to happen, nothing in between, no historical event preceding is predicted.

    Folks who obsess over when, never grow up. For they don't recognize what imminent, means. Folks who disbelieve or incorrectly time Rapture, also never grow up. And these all are en retard, by the millions. And because the numbers misled are so high, they mistake that consensus for truth. Consensus is never truth. At best, consensus might be a way to discover truth. Sadly, history proves every time that whatever man largely dotes on, tends to be wrong. We dote on religion. We dote on the banal. We dote on making ourselves feel good about ourselves, and we dote on consensus.

So yeah it matters. And Bible makes a stink about imminency in every NT book. We just aren't doing our homework well enough to see all the vocabulary it uses to flesh out the doctrine. So we Dispies are the worst among the scholars, not well handling a doctrine we sorta know!


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 Post subject: Re: rapture imminent?
PostPosted: 19 Nov 2015, 02:47 
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Quote:
Matt 24:36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

Zech 14:7 For it will be a unique day which is known to the LORD, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light.


I wonder if Matt 24:36 is referring to Zech 14:7?

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 Post subject: Re: rapture imminent?
PostPosted: 19 Nov 2015, 05:52 
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No, Matt 24:36 is a Rapture verse, which is explained in John 17:20 ff. No one knows but the Father, because it's up to Father when the Body is complete, to answer Christ's prayer. But that prayer is that FATHER DETERMINE the Bride's composition. Hence Eph 4:12-13 is the criterion for the Rapture, contingent and therefore imminent.


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 Post subject: Re: rapture imminent?
PostPosted: 19 May 2017, 00:04 
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OK so I am going to put this out here and maybe you all may think I am crazy but many people think that the Revelation 12 sign is to happen in the constellation of Virgo this September.
If anyone would like to check out this theory I would be glad to hear your feedback. They say this sign in the heavens will never happen again. There is a video series by Pastor John Abent (JNBAP on Youtube) and Scotty Clark also has many videos about the Rev. 12 sign.
Pastor Abent comments that when the UN made their resolution against Israel on 12/23 last year, it was significant and signalled we were beginning the Birth Pangs. Also, does anyone find it significant that our Pres. is going to Israel during Pentecost and has promised that he will bring about a peace agreement? His son in law Jared has an office at 666 Fifth Ave. and has come out of seemingly nowhere. Finally there is this blog called Daily Crow which notes current events and there numerical relations to Biblical Prophecy. There are so many "coincidences" that they cannot be coincidences.
OK I am rambling here but I think we are in such critical times. I know that if nothing happens this Sept. I will continue to believe but it sure seems like we are close to the end. One last point, if technology keeps advancing the way it is, we are going to reach a point of singularity and I don't think God will have that.
Thoughts? Please pardon my ignorance in asking all these questions. I am still just trying to keep in the Word every day by reading and listening to teachings. Right now am away from my home church, living with my elderly Mom out in the country.
Eirene


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 Post subject: Re: rapture imminent?
PostPosted: 19 May 2017, 00:21 
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Go read Deuteronomy 18, then Acts 1, and ask yourself if God would make a SIGN of Rapture using the stars when He outlawed folks using the stars in the OT, and Jesus said there would BE no sign, to the apostles.

Then look at Matt2 and ask how it is that the magi reported seeing a star but Jerusalem didn't see it, and how could a real star (rather than an angel, since angels are called 'stars of God' in Job) -- how could a real star act like a Mitch Miller bouncing ball above the oikon (big house, in Greek of Matt2) where Jesus then was, his parents just having taken him home from his bris at the Temple?

Then you'll have a good answer to your question straight from God. Use 1Jn1:9 as you read those Scriptures, see for yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: rapture imminent?
PostPosted: 19 May 2017, 01:23 
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I will check these verses out. But what do you do with the verse of Rev. 12:1. What does it mean if not in the stars? When I look up the Greek word for "wonder" it is:

σημεῖον sēmeîon, say-mi'-on; neuter of a presumed derivative of the base of G4591; an indication, especially ceremonially or supernaturally:—miracle, sign, token, wonder.

and in Rev. 12: 5 the word for the taking up of the woman's child (not the Man Child)
is:
ἁρπάζω harpázō, har-pad'-zo; from a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications):—catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

thank you for your encouragement to look up those verses, but I don't know how to explain Rev. 12:1
eirene


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 Post subject: Re: rapture imminent?
PostPosted: 19 May 2017, 01:58 
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@ Eirene

Look for your answers to Revelation in the Old Testament, especially for Rev 12:1. It is a reference to the Jews, not the Church, so the rapture really wouldn't be applicable there.

Rev 4:1 is the only rapture disclosure I can think of in the entire book of Revelation, but it doesn't attach it to any historical or astronomical events.

As you continue to grow spiritually, you're going to run into a lot of "coincidences" they are often orchestrated by the demonic network to distract us. Just focus on the Word and you can avoid a lot of trouble. Its more important to understand WHY the rapture will take place than WHEN. You will find that the New Testament has a lot to say about WHY it will happen, and very little to say about WHEN. I know from experience that trying to figure out when is not worth it. You'll find an endless set of "coincidences", but in the end, it won't mean anything.

There is a reason why we should be sanctified from the world. Its because the world-system, with its coincidences, is a web of chaos.

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 Post subject: Re: rapture imminent?
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2017, 12:26 
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The tie between Rapture and millenniarianism which is pan-culture continues to be a political topic. The Muslims await the Mahdi, the Buddhists the Matreya, the Russians the Last Emperor (Putin right now playing on that), the Jews and Christians, Messiah (tho differently defined in each of their subgroups). Then the Mayan thingy, can't remember the other cultures which have a thing about turns in millennia defined by their own counting systems.


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