Christians roughly and often bitterly divide, over whether the Jews have a future in history; and particularly, whether God's Promises to the Jews in the OT, even still apply to them.
Much of what has become modern history centers on this divide, especially from Constantine (when the Catholic church really
began, by his fiat).. through the Reformation. Even long after the Reformation began, since its main proponents Calvin and Luther were so virulently anti-Semitic, whether in Catholic or Protestant lands, pogroms against the Jews continued to be based on a claim that God has rejected them.
So you see, this is a rather toxic and important topic to analyze, especially now with all the attention focused on the Middle East.
There's a running and odd historical trend from the first-century forward: interest favoring the Jews and interest in learning Bible, correlate positively. So, when interest in learning Bible declines, interest in protecting the Jews declines as well.
When this decline occurs, a rise in religious institutionalism accompanies it, which you can usually demonstrate by looking at Church History, especially the 'councils'. During such a rise, the freedom to get and read Bible for itself, diminishes. Then comes some kind of war, when the variant religionists fight each other. The wars of Europe mostly register these changes, and of course the pogroms follow or precede. Good book tracing these is the Atlas of Bible and Christianity
edited by Dowley, and also Christopher DeHamel's History of the Bible
So: among Christians, the majority, Calvinists and Catholics, many Anglican, Seventh-Day-Adventist, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, and even some Baptist groups -- these generally hold that when Israel rejected Christ at His First Advent, she forfeited all the eschatological promises
made to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David -- so Church instead inherits those 'covenants' or 'promises'. This majority group's position, is often categorized as 'Reformed Theology' or more aptly, 'Replacement Theology', in Christendom.
A large and vocal minority, often called 'Dispensationalists' -- who also span many denominations or 'independent' groups that defy precise classification -- these 'Dispies' usually hold variants of the idea that the eschatological promise to the Jews is YES future and YES separate from the promise aka covenant to Church
, an entity created by Christ postmortem based on Matthew 16:18 and ratified in John 17. Consequently, within this group, there is a debate over when
the Church covenant begins and ends; and consequently when
the one to Israel, recommences and finishes. The Church 'Age' or Covenant's commencement is generally agreed to begin at Pentecost, though some think it doesn't begin until the appointment of the apostle Paul (with what proof I do not know, I can't find any Biblical justification for a starts-with-Paul contention)
Ergo, most 'Dispies' would tell you that due to 1 Thess 4:17, there will be a 'Rapture' (Anglicized version of Vulgate in that verse, Latin rapiemur translating Greek harpagesometha)
, and this 'Rapture' ends Church and begins the Tribulation, which is the last 7 years promised to Israel per Daniel 9:27. After which, she is still 'queen of the nations' in a literal Millennium.
Sad to say, the Biblical scholarship
by both Replacement and Dispie 'camps', even among their degreed folk.. is abysmal. So you end up with silly and scurrilous movies like 'Left Behind' and 'Da Vinci Code', and all manner of related print nonsense, which have nothing to do with the Bible text, or even with either side in this 'debate'.
Of course, most Jews hold they have a future promised by God too
, and most believe in a literal 1000 years which Messiah starts. They disagree whether Jesus is the Messiah=Christ (Heb=Greek), so if disagreeing, think there is only the latter 'Advent'. Surprisingly, some Muslims hold that Jesus is the Messiah (as herald of a 2nd coming of Mohammed, though some don't believe Mohammed will return) -- but claim the Millennium belongs to them,
rather than to the Jews.
Replacement Theology holds that it belongs to Church, if a literal millennium. For example Calvin
thought it means replacing the Catholic Church of Revelation 17 (which text isn't necessarily Catholic, but definitely Roman). Many in the Replacement camp deny a literal Millennium altogether, chiefly Catholics, since Origen
allegorized Revelation 7 against the plain text of Jewish tribes, to mean only Christians; so did Augustine
, in other respects. (The links are searches, so you can select sources you respect.)
So this thread relates to these positions.
If you want to know where I stand, it's YEAH Pre-Trib Rapture, because the timing of the Tribulation is a set of accounting books which has been tracked since Genesis 1, in the Hebrew meter; because every Chapter of the NT references it as a historical backdrop, and every Chapter 1 of every NT book continues the OT timeline: in particular, Paul creates an annual
prophetic timeline for Church 62nd-week time loop playing directly on Daniel 9:26. Documented in videos (ongoing project), to wit:
- Basic math, here; master that first, or you'll not be able to follow the meter. Notice the core is built around Genesis 5, so now you know why all those Bible dates are so annoying and plentiful. BIBLE'S TRACKING TIME. Question is, why? Well.. countdown to Messiah, a promised 2100 years, which any Jew can explain (they think it's only 2000, rounding it off). Christians don't know anything about this, but it's all over Scripture.
- That's the 'dispensation' the BIBLE accounts:
- 2100 years for the goyim = Adam to Abraham, and it matches the Bible timeline, which is tracked, Abram becoming mature year 2046 from Adam's fall; then
- 2100 years for the Jews = Abraham to Christ, and He's born 4103 from Adam's fall;
- then Messiah comes (yeah, and He died per the tracking in Bible, year 4136 from Adam's fall),
- with the Millennium then supposed to be 53.5+3.5 years away but instead 64 years away,
- to pay back 2100-2046 (plus a 3.5 year loss owing to late start of 1st Temple), also tracked from Moses in Psalm 90, forward. This way the shortening of 'Gentile' time is made up. So each 'group' gets a total of 2100 years.
- TWO 'dispensations', essentially.
- But Christ being rejected, took out the Time Bridge, since the last 7 of the 2100 for the Jews, hasn't played.
- For Daniel 9:26 ends at 37 AD, but He died 7 years prior, so that's why Israel is owed seven years (586 BC Temple down +70+70+483=37AD, the accounting begins with Temple down not Nehemiah's return, since the Decree is GOD's, not a human King, Daniel 9:2 reading Jeremiah 25 and 29, and Daniel 9:24. Thus the two 70 reimbursements, then 69 weeks, with the Trib supposed to follow after).
- Ergo, Church is a Time Bridge. So THREE dispensations total, prior to Millennium. How long the third one lasts, is not stated, as its completion depends on bodies, not set time, per Father's discretion, John 17:20ff.
- Moses begins tracking both 2100's in Genesis 1, here.
- Moses creates a panoramic tracking of both the Adamic and Abrahamic 2100's using sabbatical meter accounting in Psalm 90, here.
- Isaiah tracking Moses, here.
- Daniel tracking Isaiah, here.
- Mary tracking Daniel, here.
- Matthew tracking Moses' endpoint and Mary, here.
- Luke tracking Matthew and Paul through Mary, here.
- Mark tracking Luke, here.
- Paul tracking Luke through Mary then satirizing the future history of Church, here. Map of his rhetorical style, is here. It's a lot of material to slog through, sorry. Took me over a year to write.
Then, in the Year of the Four Emperors,
- Peter tracking Paul's Ephesians meter to make a marching song out of Church prophecy, here.
- Jude tracking Peter, here.
- The writer of Hebrews tracking Mark tracking Luke tracking Paul, here.
Then, beginning 7 years after the Temple fell just after the Year of the Four Emperors (August 70 AD),
- John tracks the writer of Hebrews, Paul, Peter, Jude, Mark, and then back to Daniel, here.
In short, there's a lot of tracking using the same OT timeline system, a kind of rolling calendar, here's where we are on the time map
. Now, is that material correctly interpreted? Probably not. But until I find where the errors are, I'm sticking with it. If you find any, let me know!
Else, debate as you will. I won't jump in unless you ask. Frankforum's supposed to be about YOU, as my stuff is already 'out there'. Enjoy!