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Two Witnesses.
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Author:  Anonynomenon [ 16 Apr 2016, 05:07 ]
Post subject:  Two Witnesses.

A very popular view of the Two Witnesses during the Tribulation is that their identities are Moses and Elijah. This is also a view that RBT held. The main reasons are that Moses and Elijah were both present at the Transfiguration of our Lord, and of course, Rev 11 attributes to the Two Witnesses the authority that was granted to Moses and Elijah in the OT.

Rev 11:6 These have the power to shut up the sky, so that rain will not fall during the days of their prophesying; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.

I've heard others say that the Two Witnesses are Enoch and Elijah, or even Zerubbabel and Joshua.

How likely is it that none of these people are the Two Witnesses? Could it be that the Two Witnesses are simply two Tribulation believers who are given the task of witnessing? Just as John the Baptist came as a type of Elijah, could it be that the Two Witnesses are simply types of Moses and Elijah?

Maybe their 3.5 year ministry is supposed to demonstrate accelerated spiritual maturity under pressure, with its peak at their martyrdom.

Author:  brainout [ 16 Apr 2016, 09:01 ]
Post subject:  Re: Two Witnesses.

Yeah, that makes sense. Actually, I seem to remember the Colonel later hedging on the 'traditional' view that the Two Witnesses were resurrected OT folk. I want to say he did this hedging in the Rev classes (1981-85), but I'd have to look it up in my notes. Or, maybe he revisited the idea during 1992 Spiritual Dynamics. In any case, like you, I don't believe they are resurrected OT folk, but current living believers, maybe part of the 144K. Definitely Jews.

To me the dead giveaway is the fact they get killed. You can't kill resurrected folk. And why would Moses and Elijah be resuscitated after thousands of years? No one would believe they were Moses and Elijah, but if they were current living believers, others would know them from birth, etc. So that would better attest their sudden 'magical' powers as from God, no?

Author:  Anonynomenon [ 16 Apr 2016, 17:52 ]
Post subject:  Re: Two Witnesses.

Yeah, I agree.

And what about after their mid-trib deaths? Are they resurrected or just resuscitated? I don't see why they would be resurrected before the rest of the Tribulation martyrs, yet rising 3.5 days later might tie to Christ's resurrection.

Author:  RonEzboulder [ 16 Apr 2016, 20:10 ]
Post subject:  Re: Two Witnesses.

You're crazy!
I searched the KJV!
I got 655 results for ". . . king of . . .", and 49 results for ". . . prince of . . ." !!
They will obviously be: Elvis, and probably Michael Jackson !!

Author:  brainout [ 17 Apr 2016, 01:01 ]
Post subject:  Re: Two Witnesses.

LOL Ron! :dance: :kickdance: :hattip:

Author:  RonEzboulder [ 09 May 2016, 20:18 ]
Post subject:  Re: Two Witnesses.

Is it possible that, of the "two witnesses", one is of that-there fleamale persuasion?

I had always thought that there was something peculiar about Joshua and Zerubbabel in the OT books of the bible. Recently, while watching a "Revelation Seminar" program on T.V. and it was noted by a Christian college professor named Stephenovich (may be misspelled), that in Rev.11:8 the original GREEK word translated as the two English words "dead bodies" (in the KJV), is actually SINGULAR. To me, this rang a bell. To help verify it I looked at both the "Companion Bible" edited by E.W. Bullinger (with its extensive notes and structures), and the "Commentary on Revelation", also written by Bullinger. These two indeed confirmed that in verse 8 the Greek word is singular. Also, according to Bullinger, of the two occurrences in verse 9, ONLY ONE of them was plural. I thought to myself: "Somethings afoot here Watson!". To further confirm these curiosities I checked the Interlinear version text on my PCStudy Bible, and sure enough, in verse 8 the Greek word is "ptoma". In verse 9, the first is "ptoma", but the second is "ptomata" (plural, I ass-u-me, not being a Greek scholar).

In Revelation 11 the "two witnesses" are equated with the "two olive trees, and the two candlesticks", as given in the book of Zechariah. After they have finished their testimony, the beast from the bottomless pit kills them (Rev. 11:7). But with the "corrections" to the words in verses 8 and 9, you would have the effect of:

8 And their DEAD BODY [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their DEAD BODY three days and an half, and shall not suffer their DEAD BODIES to be put in graves.

In two of the instances, it is as if they are considered, by God, as ONE PERSON. Don't you find that peculiar? How about:
"Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be ONE FLESH." (Gen. 2:24 KJV).
Though I don't believe that, as translated, to be the precise meaning of the verse, it did make me recall the passages concerning Joshua and Zerubbabel. In Zechariah, Joshua and Zerubbabel seem to be almost force-tied to one-another. Some examples include:

"... unto Joshua ... my servant the BRANCH ... I will give thee PLACES TO WALK among THESE THAT STAND BY." (Zech. 3:6-9 KJV), and
"For behold THE STONE that I have laid before Joshua; upon ONE STONE [shall be] SEVEN EYES: behold I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the Lord of hosts, ..." (Zech. 3:9 KJV).

"Zerubbabel ... shall bring forth THE HEADSTONE ..." (Zech. 4:7 KJV), and
"For who hath despised the day of small things ? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel [with] THOSE SEVEN; they [are] THE EYES of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth." (Zech. 4:10 KJV).

Question: Are there two stones, two SETS of sevens, and two SETS of similar eyes, OR, are the stones, the sevens, and the eyes THE SAME?

And note how the bible MIGHT be smoothly intermixing the two persons in Zech. 6:12-13 (KJV): [[Let me insert here that some scholars believe that Joshua was intended to receive the Priest's crown, and Zerubbabel was INTENDED to receive the King's crown..]]

"And speak unto him (SINGULAR), saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name [is] The BRANCH; and he (JOSHUA) shall grow up OUT OF HIS PLACE (JOSHUA), and he (ZERUBBABEL) shall build the temple of the LORD:"
"Even he (ZERUBBABEL) shall build the temple of the LORD; and he (JOSHUA) shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne (JOSHUA [AS Zerubbabel]); and he (JOSHUA) shall be a priest upon his throne (JOSHUA [AS Zerubbabel]): and the COUNSEL OF PEACE shall be between them both (JOSHUA & ZERUBBABEL)."


Now, tentatively accepting such insanity, you might ask: "Well; which might be which?"
"Then take silver and gold, and make crowns ("crowns" plural), and set [them] upon the head of Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest;" (Zech. 6:11 KJV).
Joshua got the crowns, Zerubbabel got zip. Now wouldn't that be just like one of them-there fleamale types; "What's mine, IS MINE, and what's his, IS MINE !"

Now we get to another thing, which would tie to the above . . .
"And THE CROWNS shall be to Helem, and to Tobijah, and to Jedaiah, and to Hen the son of Zephaniah, FOR A MEMORIAL in the temple of the LORD." (Zech. 6:14 KJV).
Why would you need, the crowns, to be "for a memorial"? Well, lets ignore the prophetic, Messianic "King and Priest", aspects for a moment . . .
"crown" < Heb. "atarah", Stg. #5850 = "crown" or "wreath" < "atar" #5849 = "to encircle", "to crown", "to surround".
If we tried, and without too much effort, we could get "the rings" instead of "the crowns", from those. "Wedding rings"? Modern concept? Not so! Rings have been A SIGN of possession since time immemorial. And how about:
"In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, will I take thee, O ZERUBBABEL, MY SERVANT, the son of Shealtiel, saith the LORD, and will make thee as A SIGNET: for I have chosen thee, saith the LORD of hosts." (Hagg. 2:23 KJV)? "Signet" = "sign".
Lets see: "the rings" . . . "a memorial" . . . "a signet".

To conclude, I'm not saying that JOSHUA was one of them-there fleamale types. But, in that, the passages concerning two Witnesses in Revelation references BACK TO the two Olive Trees (etc.), MAYBE, just MAYBE, Zechariah is FORWARD referencing, symbolically, the two Witnesses.

Well, it WAS just a passing thought . . .

Author:  brainout [ 09 May 2016, 23:45 ]
Post subject:  Re: Two Witnesses.

Okay, someone's drinking a bit too much koolaid. Not you, but the 'noted' scholars. In GREEK, you have several ways of signifying plural. The actual Rev 11:8 words are ptoma autwn. The ptoma is NEUTER, lit., what fell, a verbal noun from Greek verb piptw, which means to fall. So a verbal noun based on a verb, needn't be plural, since 'what fell' is the proper translation, to signify no longer human; 'autwn' is masc genitive PLURAL, so no females, and TWO. It's the autwn which modifies the noun, clearly showing OF THEM, lit. THEIRS.

You can get Thayer's lexicon (very respected) and look up ptoma in it. You can get theWord Bible software for free, and I think they have a module for Thayer, which means you can easily see the lexicon when you hover your mouse over the Hebrew or Greek word.

Instead, here I used Bibleworks 9, as I started with that software over a decade ago (first bought Bibleworks 4 from a seminary and have been using it ever since, upgrading). The ACTUAL MSS are in Bibleworks, so you can see the original words. It costs $350. There's even a way to install it in Linux, but I've not done that, yet.

BW is better for you, if you ask God for the money: it has FLASHCARDS and AUDIO to help you learn the Hebrew and Greek. You can hear it while you do dishes. But frankly, I've never had to use them. My pastor just kept on teaching the vocabulary form of the words in each Bible passage, . Anonynomenon and several other here, studied under him too. So I never learned it except through class. Once I got Bibleworks 30+ years later, it was easy to read.

Looks like the folks you're citing, failed first-year seminary Bible Greek. So the rest, is likewise suspect. Sorry.

Author:  RonEzboulder [ 10 May 2016, 04:03 ]
Post subject:  Re: Two Witnesses.

Ah, come on brainout! EVERYBODY in the WHOLE world, and in ALL past history is wrong but YOU! GIVE IT A BREAK! IT WAS A F___ING JOKE! LIGHTEN UP FOR GODS SAKE!

NOW, an addendum to my previous post of this date.

In writing the previous post I almost forgot one of the most important points.

Just prior to the introduction of the two witnesses in Rev. 11, John states:
1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty [and] two months. (Rev. 11:1-2 KJV).

Now, Zechariah chapter 4, seems FUSE the discussion of the "olive trees" and the "candle sticks' with the rebuilding of the Temple by Zerubbabel. Start reading at Zech. 4:1, but especially note verse 9:

"The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you." (KJV)

By combining the verses in Zechariah in the manner that it was done, seems to bind securely these portions of the two books together!
. . . and dats the truf!

Author:  brainout [ 10 May 2016, 04:18 ]
Post subject:  Re: Two Witnesses.

Okay, I don't know what I said to engender your strong reaction, but EVERY translation of Rev 11:8 I have in any language, translates it as their corpses. Which is, the proper translation.

As for your fusing of Zech 4 to Rev11, 'candlesticks' and 'olive trees' are never used of the Two Witnesses. Those terms refer to pastors of churches (or rabbis over synagogues).

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