FrankForum (Frankness IS Forum)

No ads, no mods, Frankly Anonymous (you can join w/fake name/email, are not tracked)!
It is currently 19 Sep 2018, 16:40

All times are UTC


Forum rules


Extra Smileys: http://forums.mydigitallife.info/misc.p ... _Editor_QR

Not moderated, so you are on your own. Spambots, stalkers and anti-semites will be banned without notice. Else, POLICE YOURSELF.



Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 11 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: 16 Sep 2015, 08:24 
User avatar

Joined: 14 Sep 2015, 13:11
Posts: 383
So after thinking about the whole scenario when Christ claims Psalm 110:1, I decided to see what the infamous biblical unitarian hub had to say:
Excerpts taken from: http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/verses/psalm-110-1

They start out with:
biblicalunitarian.com wrote:
Trinitarian commentators frequently argue that “my Lord” in this verse is the Hebrew word adonai, another name for God, and is therefore proof of the divinity of the Messiah. But not only is this not a valid argument, this verse is actually one of the great proofs of the complete humanity of the promised Messiah. The Hebrew word translated “my lord” is adoni (pronounced “Adon nee” [1] ) in the standard Hebrew texts. This word is always used in Scripture to describe human masters and lords, but never God. Unfortunately, most Hebrew concordances and lexicons give only root words, not the word that actually occurs in the Hebrew text.

#1 The "adoni" (and it's actually l'adoni) they're referring to in Psalm 110:1 is *not* always used to describe humans, that's as ridiculous as saying elohim always refers to God since it doesn't (and the biblical unitarians actually contradict themselves with a double-standard from saying l'adoni is exclusively referring to humans to saying that 'theos' doesn't always refer to God when it refers to Christ in Hebrews 1:8. But their 'lower case Jesus' will be for another thread; they've had to create some fairly bizarre arguments to get around Hebrews now that I think about it). But anyways, let's give them the benefit of the doubt and say that "l'adoni" ('לַֽאדֹנִי֙)in Psalm 110 is referring to a human, but let's be good scholars and test what they say.

Let's take a peek at Genesis 15:2:
Quote:
1 Samuel 24:6 And he said unto his men: "The LORD forbid that I should do this thing to my master, the LORD'S anointed, to stretch forth my hand against him, seeing he is the anointed of the LORD (l'adoni)".
1 Samuel 24:7 וַיֹּ֙אמֶר לַאֲנָשָׁ֜יו חָלִ֧ילָה לִּ֣י מֵֽיהוָ֗ה אִם־אֶעֱשֶׂה֩ אֶת־הַדָּבָ֙ר הַזֶּ֤ה לַֽאדֹנִי֙ לִמְשִׁ֣יחַ יְהוָ֔ה לִשְׁלֹ֥חַ יָדִ֖י בּ֑וֹ כִּֽי־מְשִׁ֥יחַ יְהוָ֖ה הֽוּא׃

Yes, l'adoni is used there to refer to God just as it is in Psalm 110:1
לַֽאדֹנִי֙

Again 'l'adoni' is used here in Psalm 130:6
Quote:
Psalm 130:6 My soul waiteth for the Lord (l'adoni) more than they that watch for the morning: I say, more than they that watch for the morning.
Psalm 130:6 נַפְשִׁ֥י לַֽאדֹנָ֑י מִשֹּׁמְרִ֥ים לַ֜בֹּ֗קֶר שֹׁמְרִ֥ים לַבֹּֽקֶר׃

לַֽאדֹנָ֑י

And you can compare it with the l'adoni in Psalm 110:1 (which is the exact same morphology):
Quote:
Psalm 110:1 לְדָוִ֗ד מִ֫זְמ֥וֹר נְאֻ֤ם יְהוָ֙ה׀ לַֽאדֹנִ֗י שֵׁ֥ב לִֽימִינִ֑י עַד־אָשִׁ֥ית אֹ֜יְבֶ֗יךָ הֲדֹ֣ם לְרַגְלֶֽיךָ׃


l'donai IS used to refer to God, and I've put the Hebrew right underneath it so anyone can verify (they won't have to whine about trinitarians using Strong's since the raw Hebrew is there for all to see). Let's re-read what they said:
biblicalunitarian.com wrote:
This word [adoni] is always used in Scripture to describe human masters and lords, but never God - biblicalunitarian.com

And they'll also continue repeating the same statement; as mentioned previously it appears that they're misreading the l'adoni in Psalm 110:1 as 'adoni'.
biblicalunitarian.com wrote:
Adoni, the word used in Psalm 110:1, is never used of God. It is always used of a human or angelic superior. The fact that the Hebrew text uses the word adoni of the Messiah in Psalm 110 is very strong proof that he is not God. If the Messiah was to be God, then the word adonai would have been used.


So why did they say a deliberately false statement? The biblical unitarians are doing what's called a 'reflex response'. They are defeated in Psalm 110:1 so they have to make an illogical excuse without checking that it's accurate; because in their mind it HAS to be the case. So they WON'T verify it, because they don't WANT adoni to refer to God. That's actually quite selfish and enforcing an opinion on God's Word rather than letting the Word speak. KJV-onlyists do the same thing, of course.

Now, let's get straight to Psalm 110:1 and show that it is Christ:
Quote:
Psalm 110:1 <A Psalm of David.> The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit yourself at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.
Psalm 110:1 לְדָוִ֗ד מִ֫זְמ֥וֹר נְאֻ֤ם יְהוָ֙ה׀ לַֽאדֹנִ֗י שֵׁ֥ב לִֽימִינִ֑י עַד־אָשִׁ֥ית אֹ֜יְבֶ֗יךָ הֲדֹ֣ם לְרַגְלֶֽיךָ׃


But waaaaait, the biblical unitarians don't want it to mean God:
biblicalunitarian.com wrote:
sometimes it makes a great deal of difference, such as in Psalm 110:1. Focus on the Kingdom reports: The Bible in Psalm 110:1 actually gives the Messiah the title that never describes God. The word is adoni and in all of its 195 occurrences in the Old Testament it means a superior who is human (or occasionally angelic), created and not God. So Psalm 110:1 presents the clearest evidence that the Messiah is not God, but a supremely exalted man.

Okay, we've already proved with a basic search in BibleWorks 'l'adoni' (which is simply a variant of the morphology, not an entirely separate word: but they're grasping at straws here to disprove it) is used for God.

But let's say the biblical unitarians take the stance that 'l'adoni' can refer to God since we've proven it, but Psalm 110:1 happens to be some bizarre unique exception... well then:
#1 this actually allows the dynamic groundwork for the trinity inevitably (depends how deep you go into the original language texts)
#2 this allows the 'potential' for Psalm 110:1 for "l'adoni" to ALSO be God, but we'd have to prove that
#3 since 'l'adoni' can refer to God, if we were to say Psalm 110's 'l'adoni' does not, that makes Christ *directly* a human; and this is a problem as we'll see here:

Quote:
Mark 12:35-37 And Jesus answered and said while he taught in the temple: "How say the scribes that Christ is the Son of David? For David himself said by the Holy Spirit: The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool. David therefore himself calls Him Lord; and how is He then his son? And the common people heard him gladly.
Mark 12:35-37 Καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς ὁ Ἰησοῦς ἔλεγεν διδάσκων ἐν τῷ ἱερῷ: πῶς λέγουσιν οἱ γραμματεῖς ὅτι ὁ χριστὸς υἱὸς Δαυίδ ἐστιν; αὐτὸς Δαυὶδ εἶπεν ἐν τῷ πνεύματι τῷ ἁγίῳ: εἶπεν κύριος τῷ κυρίῳ μου· κάθου ἐκ δεξιῶν μου, ἕως ἂν θῶ τοὺς ἐχθρούς σου ὑποκάτω τῶν ποδῶν σου. αὐτὸς Δαυὶδ λέγει αὐτὸν κύριον, καὶ πόθεν αὐτοῦ ἐστιν υἱός; Καὶ πολὺς ὄχλος ἤκουεν αὐτοῦ ἡδέως.


Quote:
Matthew 22:41-46 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them saying: "What do you think of Christ? whose son is he?" They say to him: "The Son of David". He says to them: "How then does David in spirit call him Lord, saying: The LORD said to my Lord, Sit yourself on my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool? If David then calls Him Lord, how is He his son?" And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.
Matthew 22:41-46 Συνηγμένων δὲ τῶν Φαρισαίων ἐπηρώτησεν αὐτοὺς ὁ Ἰησοῦς λέγων: τί ὑμῖν δοκεῖ περὶ τοῦ χριστοῦ; τίνος υἱός ἐστιν; λέγουσιν αὐτῷ· τοῦ Δαυίδ. λέγει αὐτοῖς· πῶς οὖν Δαυὶδ ἐν πνεύματι καλεῖ αὐτὸν κύριον λέγων· 44 εἶπεν κύριος τῷ κυρίῳ μου· κάθου ἐκ δεξιῶν μου, ἕως ἂν θῶ τοὺς ἐχθρούς σου ὑποκάτω τῶν ποδῶν σου; εἰ οὖν Δαυὶδ καλεῖ αὐτὸν κύριον, πῶς υἱὸς αὐτοῦ ἐστιν; καὶ οὐδεὶς ἐδύνατο ἀποκριθῆ


So if the Psalm 110:1's l'adoni was referring to a human Lord, Christ's retort to the Pharisees when they tried calling him the [literal] Son of David was: "why would David call him Lord?" Would be NULLIFIED. So 'Lord' whether it's l'adoni or kurios in Psalm 110:1 has to be interpreted as God.

Why would you call your son LORD?

Oh yeah, and look how dizzying they are with desperately trying to create some elaborate mess:
biblicalunitarian.com wrote:
There are several uses of adonai that refer to angels or men, giving them an elevated status, but not indicating that the speaker believed they were God. This is in keeping with the language as a whole. Studies of words like Elohim show that it is also occasionally used of humans who have elevated status. Examples of adonai referring to humans include Genesis 19:18 and 24:9, 39:2. In contrast to adonai being used occasionally of men, there is no time when adoni is used of God. Men may be elevated, but God is never lowered.

WRONG!

And that's what happens when you don't do your homework or verify your bizarre claims with a five second search for the word 'l'adoni'. You start developing bizarre schemes.

Of course they'll continue on in the article rambling on and on:
biblicalunitarian.com wrote:
The following 24 uses can be found under [l’adoni], “to my Lord.” While we in English separate the preposition from the noun or verb following, in Hebrew the preposition is attached directly to the word. Gen. 24:3,54,56; 32:5,6,19; 44:9,16,33; 1 Sam. 24:7; 25:27,28,30,31; 2 Sam. 4:8; 19:29; 1 Kings 1:2; 18:13; 20:9; 1 Chron. 21:3; Ps. 110:1. All these refer to human lords, not God.
The following 6 references can be found under [v’adoni]: Gen. 18:12; Num. 36:2; 2 Sam. 11:11; 14:20; 19:28; 24:3.
The following reference can be found under [m_adoni]: Gen. 47:18.

The 'adoni' found in Psalm 110:1 is the following:
הַ֥לְלוּ
And this EXACT morphology with the EXACT preposition IN Psalm 110:1 is found in 32 verses (you'll notice they've listed 1 Samuel 24:7, but as shown above they're wrong and didn't list the correct amount of verses-- and the 'l'adoni' in 1 Samuel 24:7 is definitely not a human lord). Another interesting thing is that they're claiming l'adoni in Psalm 110:1 is just 'adoni'. Which isn't the case as l'adoni is found in Psalm 110:1 along with all of these verses:
Gen. 18:30, 32
Gen. 24:36, 54, 56
Gen. 32:5-6, 19
Gen. 44:9, 16, 33
1 Sam. 24:7
1 Sam. 25:27-28, 30-31
2 Sam. 4:8
2 Sam. 19:29
1 Ki. 1:2
1 Ki. 18:13
1 Ki. 20:9
1 Chr. 21:3
Ps. 22:31
Ps. 110:1
Ps. 130:6
Ps. 136:3
Isa. 22:5
Isa. 28:2
Jer. 46:10
Jer. 50:25
Dan. 9:9
Mal. 1:14

biblicalunitarian.com wrote:
Further evidence that the Jews always thought that the word in Psalm 110:1 referred to a human Messiah and not God come to earth is given in the Greek text, both in the Septuagint and in quotations in the New Testament. It is important to remember that the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament, was made about 250 BC, long before the Trinitarian debates started. Yet the Septuagint translation is clearly supportive of Psalm 110:1 referring to a human lord, not God. It translates adoni as ho kurios mou.
The translators of the LXX [the Septuagint] in the 3rd century BC attest to a careful distinction between the forms of adon used for divine and human reference by translating adoni as ho kurios mou, “my lord.”


Yes, modern Judaism (at least most forms) teaches unitarianism, but that doesn't mean the Jews during Jesus' time believed that, nor does it make it correct (and they have little credibility as it is since they've shown they can't read Hebrew).
I'm not entirely sure what they're trying to claim with the septuagint with "kurios mou" since that's *not* what it says and they've made errors now in bot the Greek and Hebrew. l'adoni is kurio in the LXX, and I've included the English just in case they can't keep up with basic Greek:
Quote:
Psalm 110:1 <A Psalm of David.> The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit yourself at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.
Psalm 109:1 (LXX) τῷ Δαυιδ ψαλμός εἶπεν ὁ κύριος τῷ κυρίῳ μου κάθου ἐκ δεξιῶν μου ἕως ἂν θῶ τοὺς ἐχθρούς σου ὑποπόδιον τῶν ποδῶν σου (Psa 109:1 BGT)

Highlighted in yellow Yahweh is translated as "o kurios" (noun nominative masculine singular common from)
Highlighted in lime adoni is translated as "to kurio" (noun dative masculine singular common from)
With that said the LXX isn't infallible, but the reason why the 'trinity' debate hasn't become as intense as it has in recent times is because people stopped reading the original language texts. Case in point, the biblicaunitarians don't even know what they're saying and can't comprehend their own language, let alone the original language texts.

And that's pretty much it, the rest of it is just rambling such as:
biblicalunitarian.com wrote:
It is interesting that scholars have often not paid close attention to the text of Psalm 110 or the places it is quoted in the New Testament

Perhaps they're the ones not paying attention since they've proven that they don't even bother to look up their claims or verify what the original languages say.


Last edited by hupostasis on 20 Sep 2015, 21:40, edited 3 times in total.

Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 17 Sep 2015, 00:18 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 10 Aug 2015, 16:03
Posts: 1831
@hupostasis:

I'm not understanding something. You wrote:

hupostasis wrote:
"The 'adoni' found in Psalm 110:1 is the following:
הַ֥לְלוּ
And this EXACT morphology with the EXACT preposition IN Psalm 110:1 is found in 32 verses"


But the Hebrew text you wrote isn't Adoni...

But this is L'Adonai, in Psalm 110:1, ynI©doal (I can't get it to print in Hebrew from Bibleworks, that's the raw code when pasted from the clipboard, but it shows up rightly in the actual Hebrew, sorry!)


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 17 Sep 2015, 11:00 
User avatar

Joined: 14 Sep 2015, 13:11
Posts: 383
brainout wrote:
@hupostasis:

I'm not understanding something. You wrote:

hupostasis wrote:
"The 'adoni' found in Psalm 110:1 is the following:
הַ֥לְלוּ
And this EXACT morphology with the EXACT preposition IN Psalm 110:1 is found in 32 verses"


But the Hebrew text you wrote isn't Adoni...

But this is L'Adonai, in Psalm 110:1, ynI©doal (I can't get it to print in Hebrew from Bibleworks, that's the raw code when pasted from the clipboard, but it shows up rightly in the actual Hebrew, sorry!)

It should be this here:
לַֽאדֹנִ֗י

I'll fix that then, it was actually the biblical unitarians saying that was 'adoni' in Psalm 110:1. Basically their argument is that it's 'adoni' in Psalm 110:1 and nowhere else is it used for God, re-quoted here:
Quote:
The following 24 uses can be found under [l’adoni], “to my Lord.” While we in English separate the preposition from the noun or verb following, in Hebrew the preposition is attached directly to the word. The 'adoni' found in Psalm 110:1 is the following...

Which isn't the case, of course.

Try turning off comic sans in firefox (having a forced font may be affecting the way the clipboard interprets fonts being pasted).


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 17 Sep 2015, 11:19 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 10 Aug 2015, 16:03
Posts: 1831
Thank you for the text correction. I figured you meant L'Adonai. But I still can't paste it. Even when the Comic Sans font isn't forced in Firefox, it won't work: see, now it's not on and now I'm pasting from BW5, ynI©doal;

Oh well. :rain:


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 17 Sep 2015, 11:24 
User avatar

Joined: 14 Sep 2015, 13:11
Posts: 383
brainout wrote:
Thank you for the text correction. I figured you meant L'Adonai. But I still can't paste it. Even when the Comic Sans font isn't forced in Firefox, it won't work: see, now it's not on and now I'm pasting from BW5, ynI©doal;

Oh well. :rain:


It might be a limitation of BW5 over BW9.


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 17 Sep 2015, 11:30 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 10 Aug 2015, 16:03
Posts: 1831
Ahh, okay. What do you set as your export font in BW9?


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 20 Sep 2015, 01:05 
User avatar

Joined: 14 Sep 2015, 13:11
Posts: 383
brainout wrote:
Ahh, okay. What do you set as your export font in BW9?


Unicode Export fonts are:
Unicode Greek: SBL Greek
Unicode Hebrew: SBL Hebrew

With all three export 'as unicode' boxes checked


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 20 Sep 2015, 03:27 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 10 Aug 2015, 16:03
Posts: 1831
Okay, thank you, that worked for BW9. 14 point export: John 6:40, beginning, BGT, only large font export via control C then control V: τοῦτο γάρ ἐστιν τὸ θέλημα

Ezekiel 16:6, WTT (rtl): וָאֶעֱבֹ֤ר עָלַ֙יִךְ֙ וָֽאֶרְאֵ֔ךְ

Extra Large (still very small, didn't change the 14 point setting), וָאֶעֱבֹ֤ר עָלַ֙יִךְ֙ וָֽאֶרְאֵ֔ךְ


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 20 Sep 2015, 21:38 
User avatar

Joined: 14 Sep 2015, 13:11
Posts: 383
brainout wrote:
Okay, thank you, that worked for BW9. 14 point export: John 6:40, beginning, BGT, only large font export via control C then control V: τοῦτο γάρ ἐστιν τὸ θέλημα

Ezekiel 16:6, WTT (rtl): וָאֶעֱבֹ֤ר עָלַ֙יִךְ֙ וָֽאֶרְאֵ֔ךְ

Extra Large (still very small, didn't change the 14 point setting), וָאֶעֱבֹ֤ר עָלַ֙יִךְ֙ וָֽאֶרְאֵ֔ךְ



That's because you have to specify the forum's font size commands (the font size won't be carried over since the size is agnostic until you specify the phpbb statements).
וָאֶעֱבֹ֤ר עָלַ֙יִךְ֙ וָֽאֶרְאֵ֔ךְ
וָאֶעֱבֹ֤ר עָלַ֙יִךְ֙ וָֽאֶרְאֵ֔ךְ
וָאֶעֱבֹ֤ר עָלַ֙יִךְ֙ וָֽאֶרְאֵ֔ךְ


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 20 Sep 2015, 21:48 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 10 Aug 2015, 16:03
Posts: 1831
I did specify it: 300% is the max font size in phpBB. I didn't try to use the font SIZE in the Editor, was just trying to use its size in BW9.


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 10 Feb 2016, 02:41 
User avatar

Joined: 09 Feb 2016, 00:11
Posts: 4
How about referencing the larger BU community rather than just one person?


Report this post
Top
   
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 11 posts ] 

All times are UTC


You can post new topics in this forum
You can reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited