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PostPosted: 06 Oct 2015, 06:37 
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Video here that I found (showcasing a variety of interpretations on John 10:30): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okd4OCyzqzg
And also I will be taking some quotes from this page on John 10:30 from biblical unitarian (since their counter arguments are fantastic to show the contradictions): http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/videos ... john-10-30

  • Unitarians say it's "one in purpose"
  • (some) Trinitarians say it's "one will"
  • (some) Trinitarians say it's Christ claiming deity

I'm going to have to take the position that John 10:30 means what it says without requiring a overly-spatial allegory or without changing the definition of words; that it refers to the trinity with Christ claiming deity to have the same essence as God (three and one).
Quote:
John 10:30 I and the Father are one (I AM)
John 10:30 ἐγὼ καὶ ὁ πατὴρ ἕν ἐσμεν


NOBODY else (in the Bible) claims to be "one" with the Father. And changing Christ's words to "I and the Father have the same purpose" or "I and the father are united" is completely different from saying: I and the Father ONE (I AM). The ending Greek word there (esmen) was omitted as I understand since it was nonsensical to translators. But when you re-add it, it increases the emphasis. I could be wrong, but esmen is there nonetheless and needs to be added to the translation...
More troubling is the fact that "one" (ἕν) has its definition modified by the unitarians / trinitarians to mean "united / purpose / goal". That's not at all what ἕν means, ESPECIALLY if it lacks another word to change its definition. Whenever an interpretation requires re-tooling the words used, caution is to be taken. Of course somebody could just as easily argue that against me, but for all intents and purposes everybody knows "ἕν" used in John 10:30 means one.

But but but... what about all of the other "one" verses that prove we're united / one purpose and not ONE BEING?
biblicalunitarian.com wrote:
When Paul wrote to the Corinthians about his ministry there, he said that he had planted the seed and Apollos had watered it. Then he said, “he who plants and he who waters are one” (1 Cor. 3:8 – KJV). In the Greek texts, the wording of Paul is the same as that in John 10:30, yet no one claims that Paul and Apollos make up “one being.”

Okay let's go through them all.
Quote:
1 Corinthians 3:8 Now he that plants and he that waters are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
1 Corinthians 3:8 ὁ φυτεύων δὲ καὶ ὁ ποτίζων ἕν εἰσιν, ἕκαστος δὲ τὸν ἴδιον μισθὸν λήμψεται κατὰ τὸν ἴδιον κόπον·

So clearly if someone who plants and one who waters is one, they're clearly not "one being", thus making John 10:30 void. Right, right? Not quite... someone who PLANTS and WATERS *is* ONE. ONE ESSENCE (not "one BEING"). See here:
Quote:
1 Corinthians 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
1 Corinthians 6:17 ὁ δὲ κολλώμενος τῷ κυρίῳ ἓν πνεῦμά ἐστιν.

When you *get the Holy Spirit*, you get God's essence and *you* become trichotomous as a result (Physical Body + Soul + Holy Spirit). Therefore, you do indeed become 'one' with the one who plants, or the one who waters. Since all believers are joined with *one* Spirit, and all believers need God's brains to think Bible. Without God, we cannot learn the Word. So if we're all learning through the same Holy Spirit, we are technically one. For example: an ant colony is 'one' colony, but it is composed of many ants (and they vary in specialization). So while it is 'one', there are still multiple individuals, yet it is one colony. It's one in essence! So it becomes "one body" and not "one being"
N.B. the phrase "one being" is generated by someone who doesn't understand the concept of 'one essence'

biblicalunitarian.com wrote:
Furthermore, the NIV translates 1 Corinthians 3:8 as “he who plants and he who waters have one purpose.” Why translate the phrase as “are one” in one place, but as “have one purpose” in another place? In this case, translating the same phrase in two different ways obscures the clear meaning of Christ’s statement in John 10:30: Christ always did the Father’s will; he and God have “one purpose.”

Why? Because translations are inconsistent and wrong, heh. Original language texts says "one" and that's how it should be. Also as we've previously saw, here's another instance of biblical unitarian using a *translation* to base their argument instead of the original language text. Naughty.

And in case someone still doesn't understand how God can be "one" and how we can be "one", Paul explains this dichotomy:
Quote:
1 Corinthians 12:19 And if they were all one member, where is the body?
1 Corinthians 12:19 εἰ δὲ ἦν τὰ πάντα ἓν μέλος, ποῦ τὸ σῶμα; 20 νῦν δὲ πολλὰ μὲν μέλη, ἓν δὲ σῶμα.
1 Corinthians 12:20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
1 Corinthians 12:20 νῦν δὲ πολλὰ μὲν μέλη, ἓν δὲ σῶμα.

The unitarians and (some) trinitarians are looking at it as how Paul described it in verse 19: "one member" and "one body". But there actually "many members" (believers) and "one body" (in Christ). So to recap once again:
Trinity = THREE and ONE
Church = BELIEVERS + H.S. and ONE

So let's back up and read this verse to get the whole picture now:
Quote:
John 17:23 I in them, and you in me, that they may be made mature in one; and that the world may know that you have sent me, and have loved them, as you have loved me.
John 17:23 ἐγὼ ἐν αὐτοῖς καὶ σὺ ἐν ἐμοί, ἵνα ὦσιν τετελειωμένοι εἰς ἕν, ἵνα γινώσκῃ ὁ κόσμος ὅτι σύ με ἀπέστειλας καὶ ἠγάπησας αὐτοὺς καθὼς ἐμὲ ἠγάπησας.

The only way Christ can be 'in' us is if we receive the Holy Spirit (by believing). The only way Christ can be 'in' the Father is if He is God (Godhead). If Christ is in us, but the Father is in Him, how is it "one purpose" when Christ is specifying that he's acting as a bridge for us AS A RESULT of being the Godhead? They've actually broke John 17:23 by using "one purpose", let's modify the verses with the "Biblical Unitarian Edition" to fit their perspective:
Quote:
*BUE John 10:30 I and the Father are one [purpose] <-- no Godhead
*BUE John 17:23 I in them (with) one [purpose], and you in me (with) one [purpose], that they may be made mature in one [purpose]; and that the world may know that you have sent me, and have loved them, as you have loved me. <-- no bridge, no mediator
*BUE 1 Corinthians 12:12 For as the body is one [purpose] and has many members, and all the members of that one [purpose] body, being many, are one [purpose] body: so also is Christ. <-- the 'body' becomes one purpose and ultimately a "one purpose body"
*BUE = "Biblical Unitarian Edition"

The problem we see is that the verse becomes redundant (the 'bridge' is nullified since it's no longer Christ in us acting as the mediator to the Father, since He is not God-- which is ONLY possible through the Godhead). AND, if the Father and the Son have "one purpose", there's no need to separate it. But it is. When we reach 1 Corinthians 12:12 it really breaks down, a "one purpose" body, really? That's stark contrast to what Paul said where each 'member' has a different "purpose" (spiritual gift).

Now let's read it with how it originally is:
Quote:
John 10:30 I and the Father are one (I AM) <-- Stating that the Godhead exists
John 17:23 I in them, and you in me, that they may be made mature in one; and that the world may know that you have sent me, and have loved them, as you have loved me. <-- bridge becomes active, Christ (as part of the Godhead) acts as our mediator
1 Corinthians 12:12 For as the body is one, and has many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. <-- All believers share the Holy Spirit, Godhead re-stated at the end

So we can see that Christ has to be the Godhead in order to be our mediator. If it's one purpose, then, no mediator.

biblicalunitarian.com wrote:
There is no reason to take this verse to mean that Christ was saying that he and the Father make up “one God.” The phrase was a common one, and even today if someone used it, people would know exactly what he meant—he and his father are very much alike.

There are a lot of reasons to take John 10:30 to mean Christ is God (since we start to break things as we've just saw in John 17:23). And for the record, biblicalunitarian.com... nobody can know exactly what is meant from the Bible without 1 John 1:9. And this is first hand proof. Claiming that "people" can know exactly what is meant is a poor way to proof something (and if we honestly wanted to entertain that idea there would be people who would interpret it both ways, always).
Very much alike... not exactly the definition of ἕν.

--One Flesh Verses--
Quote:
Matthew 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Matthew 19:5 καὶ εἶπεν· ἕνεκα τούτου καταλείψει ἄνθρωπος τὸν πατέρα καὶ τὴν μητέρα καὶ κολληθήσεται τῇ γυναικὶ αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἔσονται οἱ δύο εἰς σάρκα μίαν.
Matthew 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder.
Matthew 19:6 ὥστε οὐκέτι εἰσὶν δύο ἀλλὰ σὰρξ μία. ὃ οὖν ὁ θεὸς συνέζευξεν ἄνθρωπος μὴ χωριζέτω.
Mark 10:8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.
1 Corinthians 6:16 What? Don't you know that he which is joined to a harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
1 Corinthians 6:16 [ἢ] οὐκ οἴδατε ὅτι ὁ κολλώμενος τῇ πόρνῃ ἓν σῶμά ἐστιν; ἔσονται γάρ, φησίν, οἱ δύο εἰς σάρκα μίαν.
Ephesians 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
Ephesians 5:31 ἀντὶ τούτου καταλείψει ἄνθρωπος πατέρα καὶ μητέρα καὶ προσκολληθήσεται πρὸς τὴν γυναῖκα αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἔσονται οἱ δύο εἰς σάρκα μίαν.


The same applies to "one flesh". A married couple are "TWO and ONE". They operate as a team (hopefully), but are together as one (couple). They're not a two-headed hydra, just as God is not a three-headed hydra. But they're still one couple, and God is one God.

biblicalunitarian.com wrote:
2. Christ uses the concept of “being one” in other places, and from them one can see that “one purpose” is what is meant. John 11:52 says Jesus was to die to make all God’s children “one.” In John 17:11, 21 and 22, Jesus prayed to God that his followers would be “one” as he and God were “one.” We think it is obvious that Jesus was not praying that all his followers would become one being or “substance” just as he and his Father were one being or “substance.” We believe the meaning is clear: Jesus was praying that all his followers be one in purpose just as he and God were one in purpose, a prayer that has not yet been answered.

As we've shown, one in essence is what is consistently meant. When a married couple become "one couple", they don't become "one purpose". They become "two and one (couple)". Furthermore notice how biblical unitarian confuses the terms "one being" and "substance" to being the same. One essence does NOT equate to "one being".

--One Lord--
Quote:
Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him: "the first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord"
Mark 12:29 ἀπεκρίθη ὁ Ἰησοῦς ὅτι πρώτη ἐστίν· ἄκουε, Ἰσραήλ, κύριος ὁ θεὸς ἡμῶν κύριος εἷς ἐστιν
Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism
Ephesians 4:5 εἷς κύριος, μία πίστις, ἓν βάπτισμα

These verses are actually troubling to unitarians because, if there's one LORD, you can't have a "Father Lord" and a "Jesus Lord" as separate entitites (or "beings" as they would say). They would have to be ONE Lord. So, with what we've saw regarding one essence, this concept is right on the dime for Mark 12:29. Christ and the Father are *the* LORD.
N.B. well there's only "one baptism", there goes baptismal regeneration down the toilet.

--Together in One--
Quote:
John 11:52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
John 11:52 καὶ οὐχ ὑπὲρ τοῦ ἔθνους μόνον ἀλλ᾽ ἵνα καὶ τὰ τέκνα τοῦ θεοῦ τὰ διεσκορπισμένα συναγάγῃ εἰς ἕν.

Same scenario, children of God are going to have the Holy Spirit.

--We as One--
Quote:
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to you. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom you have given me, that they may be one, as we are.
John 17:21 That they all may be one; as you Father are in me and I in you, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that you have sent me.
John 17:22 And the glory which you gave me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one

As previously described, God is by default 'one' (three and one) per trinity. And we become 'one' (per trichotomy) by believing, thus receiving the Holy Spirit like every other believer.

--One Body--
Quote:
Romans 12:4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same function
Romans 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
1 Corinthians 10:17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.
1 Corinthians 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.
1 Corinthians 12:18 But now God has set the members every one of them in the body, as it has pleased him.
Colossians 3:15 And let the peace of God rule in your minds, to the which also you are called in one body; and be yourselves thankful.

As previously described, all believers are in "one body" through the Holy Spirit once becomming trichotomous.

--One Mind / One Mouth--
Quote:
Romans 15:6 That you may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Corinthians 13:11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be mature, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.
Philippians 2:2 Fulfill you my joy, that you be like-minded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
1 Peter 3:8 Finally, be yourselves all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous
Acts 4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one mind and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.

Being "one mind" is getting Christ's thinking-- which requires His essence.

--God is One--
Quote:
Galatians 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

Self-explanatory (should be at this point, if not request commentary on this and I shall add).

--One Spirit--
Quote:
1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as you are called in one hope of your calling
Philippians 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becomes the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that you stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel

As previously described, 'one spirit' is the member of the Godhead whom we receive. Thus becomming "one body", and also allowing us to get Christ's thinking "one mind".
Of course if you don't get Christ's thinking, you WON'T be on the same page as those who do.

--One in Christ--
Quote:
Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Right exactly as we've proved. One in Christ, Christ is the mediator-- only possible via Godhead and us getting the Holy Spirit.

--One body by the cross--
Quote:
Ephesians 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Again, "one body" all of us as a collective are ONE body (many and one).

--One in sanctification--
Quote:
Hebrews 2:11 For both He that sanctifies and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brothers

Same thing, we're all 'one' as a body of believers.

--One sacrifice--
Quote:
Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering He has matured forever them that are sanctified.


Even James White can properly interpret John 10:30 (although I think he should have brought up John 17:21-23). Since this is Frank Forum, I will state that both Calvinists and Unitarians (and possibly "unitarian calvinists") are carnal and neglecting 1 John 1:9. So start using it. Otherwise you can never 'prove' it in the Bible and will be relegated to arguing your opinion rather than what God's Word actually says.


Let's review the final statement from biblical unitarian and throw everything we've discovered at it:
biblicalunitarian.com wrote:
3. The context of John 10:30 shows conclusively that Jesus was referring to the fact that he had the same purpose as God did. Jesus was speaking about his ability to keep the “sheep,” the believers, who came to him. He said that no one could take them out of his hand and that no one could take them out of his Father’s hand. Then he said that he and the Father were “one,” i.e., had one purpose, which was to keep and protect the sheep.

N.B. I noticed their final 'answer' to John 10:30 is very vague and outlandish. Particularly when they start talking about "keeping sheep", that has NOTHING to do with Christ saying the Father and He are one.

#1 if we use "one purpose" this doesn't keep it consistent with other verses such as "one flesh" (couple). A married couple is not "one purpose". The problem unitarians run into is that the concept of "same essence" extends beyond the trinity. So soon as you plaster "one purpose" over everything, it cannot cohesively define "one" anymore.
#2 Only Christ states He and the Father are one (nobody else makes this claim). Period.
#3 Believers become "one body" (not one being!) when they receive the Holy Spirit
#4 You cannot have "one purpose" with Christ saying He is in us, and [only] the Father is in Him; this also turns 1 Corinthians 12:12 to erroneously call the church a "one purpose body".
#5 If there is ONE Lord, and both the Father and Christ are Lord, He is God. You cannot have two beings as LORD.
#6 The verses claimed to use to break John 10:30 (i.e. 1 Corinthians 3:8) actually complement it

Now I could have possibly got some things wrong as this was whipped up in a few hours.


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PostPosted: 06 Oct 2015, 17:27 
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https://www.google.com/search?q=treis+ousia&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

Greek way of phrasing Trinity.

John 10:30 is very strong. It should be translated, "I and the Father, one WE ARE." He's stressing his Equality. Which makes sense, as back in John 8 He phrased His Own Divinity 50+ times, ending with the famous I Am in John 8:58. That's why they wanted to stone Him, for claiming to be God. The whole path to the Crucifixion is due to that. He was crucified for claiming to be God.

So those disbelieving Trinity cannot use John 10:30 to negate it. Those claiming Christ was just a man cannot make that claim from Scripture.

So we are left with what for many is a very uncomfortable situation: He's really God, He really paid, the story is really true.. or He was looney tunes. Can't call Him a good teacher, a nice guy, etc. Either God-man or nutso.

Notice you also can't say that the claim of His Divinity is made up after He died. For then He'd not have been crucified, if HE didn't claim to be God.

Very uncomfortable set of data, here.


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PostPosted: 08 Oct 2015, 07:35 
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brainout wrote:
https://www.google.com/search?q=treis+ousia&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

Greek way of phrasing Trinity.

John 10:30 is very strong. It should be translated, "I and the Father, one WE ARE." He's stressing his Equality. Which makes sense, as back in John 8 He phrased His Own Divinity 50+ times, ending with the famous I Am in John 8:58. That's why they wanted to stone Him, for claiming to be God. The whole path to the Crucifixion is due to that. He was crucified for claiming to be God.

So those disbelieving Trinity cannot use John 10:30 to negate it. Those claiming Christ was just a man cannot make that claim from Scripture.

So we are left with what for many is a very uncomfortable situation: He's really God, He really paid, the story is really true.. or He was looney tunes. Can't call Him a good teacher, a nice guy, etc. Either God-man or nutso.

Notice you also can't say that the claim of His Divinity is made up after He died. For then He'd not have been crucified, if HE didn't claim to be God.

Very uncomfortable set of data, here.


Well I knew I got something at least wrong.

I'm not sure if I would say that Christ was a lunatic if the claims weren't true (in that event someone could dispute Christ's existence and just call the whole thing a fairytale).

The problem with Unitarians is that just telling them Christ is God doesn't cut it because you'd be arguing from the TOP - DOWN. You'd have to argue from the bottom up which is what I had to do to address all of the points brought up.

Of course I could just quote this verse and call it a day (but then I wouldn't have learned anything):
Quote:
Hebrews 5:13 For everyone that uses milk is unskilfull in the Word of righteousness: for he is a BABY.

You're automatically a BABY when engulfed KJV-only / unitarianism / calvinism -- for, you wouldn't BE that if you grew up


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PostPosted: 08 Oct 2015, 09:35 
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Sorry, I wasn't trying to say you were wrong, hupostasis. I didn't see error, but was struck by how strong esmen really is, in Greek, last word in the sentence (Greek puts the most important stuff at the end of a sentence, as sometimes German or even English will). The usual word order would have heis be last, but esmen is last.

No fault in your bottom-up approach, either. Instead, I was merely on a roll due to esmen hitting me square in the face. I didn't notice before, how strong it was.


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