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 Post subject: Chuch Age elitism
PostPosted: 19 Oct 2015, 05:27 
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Joined: 14 Sep 2015, 13:11
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Quote:
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose.
Romans 8:28 Οἴδαμεν δὲ ὅτι τοῖς ἀγαπῶσιν τὸν θεὸν πάντα συνεργεῖ εἰς ἀγαθόν, τοῖς κατὰ πρόθεσιν κλητοῖς οὖσιν.


Sure, the church age could be the 'most' unique. But people who emphasize the church age and [think] that it grants superiority lose focus of the Word. God respects freedom, but *also* makes the necessary provisions. In any age.

Thinking that the 'church age' makes you special or allows you to be superior to those who weren't in it, isn't good. King David did more than any of us combined. It's not about 'the age', it's about 'the Word'. It always has been and always will be.


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 Post subject: Re: Chuch Age elitism
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2015, 03:47 
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Joined: 25 Aug 2015, 22:51
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hupostasis wrote:
Quote:
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose.
Romans 8:28 Οἴδαμεν δὲ ὅτι τοῖς ἀγαπῶσιν τὸν θεὸν πάντα συνεργεῖ εἰς ἀγαθόν, τοῖς κατὰ πρόθεσιν κλητοῖς οὖσιν.


Sure, the church age could be the 'most' unique. But people who emphasize the church age and [think] that it grants superiority lose focus of the Word. God respects freedom, but *also* makes the necessary provisions. In any age.

Thinking that the 'church age' makes you special or allows you to be superior to those who weren't in it, isn't good. King David did more than any of us combined. It's not about 'the age', it's about 'the Word'. It always has been and always will be.


I think we have far more opportunities for maturity in this dispensation than those of the past, but by no means are we elite. If anything we are spoiled with grace. But, each dispensation has its perks I suppose. I'm just glad I can enjoy bacon and shell fish. :appleface:

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


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 Post subject: Re: Chuch Age elitism
PostPosted: 30 Dec 2015, 08:43 
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Joined: 15 Oct 2015, 17:56
Posts: 103
hupostasis wrote:
Quote:
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose.
Romans 8:28 Οἴδαμεν δὲ ὅτι τοῖς ἀγαπῶσιν τὸν θεὸν πάντα συνεργεῖ εἰς ἀγαθόν, τοῖς κατὰ πρόθεσιν κλητοῖς οὖσιν.


Sure, the church age could be the 'most' unique. But people who emphasize the church age and [think] that it grants superiority lose focus of the Word. God respects freedom, but *also* makes the necessary provisions. In any age.

Thinking that the 'church age' makes you special or allows you to be superior to those who weren't in it, isn't good. King David did more than any of us combined. It's not about 'the age', it's about 'the Word'. It always has been and always will be.



Do you realize that only the Church will be bone of His bones and flesh of His flesh? David will not be. We will. There will be an eternal new heaven and new earth. Only the Church has their homes in Heaven. OT saints and all others outside of the church age will have the new earth as their home.

There are to be differences. But, there will be no jealousy, nor envy. It will simply be God's sovereign design for His creation taking on its function.

Is the queen bee superior to all the worker bees? Not really. The queen bee would be helpless without the worker bees performing their designed function. The eternal world will simply be God's order for creation being unhindered. No one will feel superior to another. For all will be preoccupied with what will make all of us feel insignificant if we should ever compare ourselves to it. Comparing ourselves with the Lord. But, we will not have time for that. We will be in constant awe and love for Him.

For the experiencing of God's love and having the untiring sheer excitement of being alive in our resurrection bodies, will be a constant exuberance of expression of unspeakable joy.

So? If everyone is overflowing with completely satisfying and fulfilling joy? Never will the thought concerning of superiority or inferiority of another ever enter anyone's mind. For, all will be happy for others, and the others will be happy for you.

The world we are now stuck in makes that realization hard to imagine. Yet, it will be beyond what we can dream or imagine. That is why I say what I do by faith.

The words "superiority" and "inferiority" will not be in our vocabulary... Only exuberant living in God's light will be important to us. And, all will have it to the fullest extent they can contain. That means, no one will be sad about their own life. How can you have envy?

Pass the potatoes please....

_________________
God has two dwellings:
one in heaven, and the other
in a meek and thankful heart.
Izaak Walton
(1593-1683)


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 Post subject: Re: Chuch Age elitism
PostPosted: 30 Dec 2015, 16:17 
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Joined: 25 Aug 2015, 22:51
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@Genez
Quote:
Do you realize that only the Church will be bone of His bones and flesh of His flesh? David will not be. We will. There will be an eternal new heaven and new earth. Only the Church has their homes in Heaven. OT saints and all others outside of the church age will have the new earth as their home.


I once shared this sentiment too, but within the past month, my view has changed. In order to have access to New Jerusalem, you must be a winner believer. There are plenty of losers in the Church. New Jerusalem is the Bride, so does that mean members of the Bride will be kicked out? I don't think so. The Church is betrothed, but that doesn't mean it will all be Bride automatically. Israel was betrothed, and look what happened to them. Romans 11 talks about Israel being grafted back in to the tree, on the basis of faith. I thought this was only talking about the 70th Week (dispensational grafting), but now I'm thinking its more than JUST dispensations....that members of the Church who are losers will lose Bride status at Beima, and Israelite believers like David, Moses, etc (the visible heros) will be grafted back in.

I'm still developing the idea, but it's pretty scary to me.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


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 Post subject: Re: Chuch Age elitism
PostPosted: 01 Jan 2016, 01:40 
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Joined: 15 Oct 2015, 17:56
Posts: 103
Anonynomenon wrote:
@Genez
Quote:
Do you realize that only the Church will be bone of His bones and flesh of His flesh? David will not be. We will. There will be an eternal new heaven and new earth. Only the Church has their homes in Heaven. OT saints and all others outside of the church age will have the new earth as their home.


I once shared this sentiment too, but within the past month, my view has changed. In order to have access to New Jerusalem, you must be a winner believer.


That is unrelated to what I was talking about. The non-winner believers will still have the same kind of resurrection body as the winners will. It will be bone of His bones and flesh of His flesh. The winners will have rewards that the losers will not.

New Jerusalem will be in orbit above the new earth. Heaven is above all. Believers who are winners will commute to their assigned jobs in regards to the new earth.

Anonynomenon wrote:
There are plenty of losers in the Church. New Jerusalem is the Bride, so does that mean members of the Bride will be kicked out? I don't think so.


Careful :hattip: ...

It does not say the New Jerusalem will be the bride. But, prepared like a bride.



Revelation 21:21

I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven
from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

_________________
God has two dwellings:
one in heaven, and the other
in a meek and thankful heart.
Izaak Walton
(1593-1683)


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 Post subject: Re: Chuch Age elitism
PostPosted: 01 Jan 2016, 02:31 
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Joined: 25 Aug 2015, 22:51
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@ Genez

Quote:
Rev 21:9“Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”


Not trying to derail what you said; in the eternal state, all believers will be Resurrected. However, for now at least, it appears that not all of the Church will be the Bride of Christ.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


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 Post subject: Re: Chuch Age elitism
PostPosted: 01 Jan 2016, 18:46 
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Joined: 15 Oct 2015, 17:56
Posts: 103
Anonynomenon wrote:
@ Genez

Quote:
Rev 21:9“Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”


Not trying to derail what you said; in the eternal state, all believers will be Resurrected. However, for now at least, it appears that not all of the Church will be the Bride of Christ.



Its good you did... I will have to get back to you on this, if I can. :scratchead:

In the mean time.. with the shedding of light on your behalf, this is what immediately comes to mind.


1 Peter 2:4-5

4 And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been
rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight
of God, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up as
a spiritual house
for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual
sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 5:31-32

31 For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and
shall be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.
32 This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to
Christ and the church
.




It should be safe to assume that there is going to be a new and eternal Divine establishment life for eternity. I think in this case, we are supposed to be left wondering for the time being as to how it will be arranged. When not told exactly how something can be? Its usually a 'test' to see how we respond or react to the knowledge that we can not fully understand.

Some truths are most likely hidden now, that in eternity will be having our new eyes open, like the OT passages concerning the Messiah were hidden until after the resurrection of Christ. But.. That's just a rationale on my part so we can feel comfortable with our ignorance and inability to solve what must be revealed to us in the Spirit, not by human logic.

_________________
God has two dwellings:
one in heaven, and the other
in a meek and thankful heart.
Izaak Walton
(1593-1683)


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 Post subject: Re: Chuch Age elitism
PostPosted: 01 Jan 2016, 23:29 
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Joined: 25 Aug 2015, 22:51
Posts: 880
Genez wrote:
Anonynomenon wrote:
@ Genez

Quote:
Rev 21:9“Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”


Not trying to derail what you said; in the eternal state, all believers will be Resurrected. However, for now at least, it appears that not all of the Church will be the Bride of Christ.





In the mean time.. with the shedding of light on your behalf, this is what immediately comes to mind.


1 Peter 2:4-5

4 And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been
rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight
of God, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up as
a spiritual house
for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual
sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 5:31-32

31 For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and
shall be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.
32 This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to
Christ and the church
.




Thanks for posting those verses, because they seem to go hand-in-hand with the following:

Quote:
Rev 21:22I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

Rev 3:12‘He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.


When we face the Beima Judgement, there will be believers who will have no precious stones to show for in their time in the flesh. They will not be made pillars in the Temple.

The Christ is the Temple, therefore the Body/Bride must have precious stone to reflect Christ's glory. If there are any Church Age believers who abort their reflective duties, then they logically must be replaced with Israelite believers who maintained their relationship with God (like David, Joshua, Moses, etc).

Quote:
Rom 11:19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?


Israel was betrothed to Christ, and they rejected it as a whole, so what makes the Church so special???? It seems to me that Christ will only marry the faithful of Israel and the Church.

Israel and Church=Preliminary Betrothed Bodies

Bride=Filtered Body (end result)


Israelite branches=Visible Heros

Church branches=Invisible Heros

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


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 Post subject: Re: Chuch Age elitism
PostPosted: 02 Jan 2016, 05:20 
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Joined: 25 Aug 2015, 22:51
Posts: 880
Hebrews 11:9-16 identifies New Jerusalem as Abraham's city (for him and his seed), yet Rev 21:9 CLEARLY identifies New Jerusalem as the Bride of the Lamb. Christ is the Lamb, and Church Age believers are considered the spiritual seed of Abraham too.

So what I'm seeing is not Replacement Theology but Integration Theology...that is the integration of the winners of Israel an the winners of the Church as the Bride and seed of Abraham. If this is true, then my mind is absolutely blown.

The answer to the Outer Darkness might be in the integration of Israel and Church.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


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 Post subject: Re: Chuch Age elitism
PostPosted: 02 Jan 2016, 07:56 
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Joined: 15 Oct 2015, 17:56
Posts: 103
Anonynomenon wrote:



Thanks for posting those verses, because they seem to go hand-in-hand with the following:

Quote:
Rev 21:22I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.


First of all... there is a need for some clarification.

There are to yet be two different new heavens and new earths. The next one will be the new heaven and new earth of the Millennial reign. Its then that those who produced wood, hay, and stubble will be denied to reign with Christ. For one thousand years many believers who refused grace and failed to enter into super grace (and maintain it) will be refused rewards. Rewards that would enable them to reign with authority for the one thousand years.



Revelation 2:26-27

To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end,
I will give authority over the nations— that one ‘will rule
them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like
pottery’—just as I have received authority from my Father.


While the winner believers are reigning with Christ on earth the many who refused the Lord's will will be placed outside of the earth in the darkness of space. They will be filled with deep regret and sorrow for having had the perfect chance to be close to the Lord in the Spirit, and had arrogantly turned it down. They remain saved of course, but for one thousand years there will be great weeping and gnashing of teeth in outer darkness (what we now call outer space). The deep regret and sorrow they will experience of being denied by the love of their life will cause great agony of their souls.

Then the end comes. The first creation is burned up. Gone. What replaces it will be an Everlasting New Heavens and Earth - called " the Home of Righteousness." That will be when all believers will be gathered to form the Temple. Remember, right now our bodies are called the Temple of God. God the Holy Spirit! As far as I can tell? We are to be the living stones of the Everlasting Temple. How its to be worked out? Many things we can not know at present.

As far as the Pillars in the Temple? It was an ancient practice of kings. That is what ancient hero kings did in ancient temples. They would dedicate a column that was covered with gold, silver, and precious stones. Included on the column was a record of their great deeds. God will be putting on permanent record a special place in a hall of records, the public display of the records of all the mature believers. They will forever be on display to be honored by all. Ancient kings who became losers had their columns removed. Those the Lord has chosen in the Church will never have their column removed. It will remain always inside and never leave the Temple.

Now...back to the ranch:

All those who had agonized for one thousand years in outer darkness will have learned their lesson and will never again waiver from the Lord's will. They will be as the Protocol son was, who was received back with full privileges.

As far as Moses and David replacing failed members of the Church? IMHO.. Impossible.. For there have been many billions of loser Christians born over the two thousand years of the Church age. Israel was only a tiny nation and only very few out their generations were faithful to the Lord.

On the other hand.. Abraham was promised a land on the new earth. Its yet to be fulfilled. OT saints will be overjoyed to live on the Everlasting new earth. Their bodies will be of that earth's elements, whatever that is to be. Our bodies will be of Heaven, like the Lords.


1 Corinthians 15:39-40

Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh,
animals have another, birds another and fish another.
There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies;
but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the
splendor of the earthly bodies is another.



Pass the butter, please..

_________________
God has two dwellings:
one in heaven, and the other
in a meek and thankful heart.
Izaak Walton
(1593-1683)


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 Post subject: Re: Chuch Age elitism
PostPosted: 02 Jan 2016, 08:03 
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Joined: 15 Oct 2015, 17:56
Posts: 103
Anonynomenon wrote:
Hebrews 11:9-16 identifies New Jerusalem as Abraham's city (for him and his seed), yet Rev 21:9 CLEARLY identifies New Jerusalem as the Bride of the Lamb. Christ is the Lamb, and Church Age believers are considered the spiritual seed of Abraham too.


There will be two different New Earths. The Millennium's New Jerusalem will be for the Jews (hence, Abraham and his seed). The second Everlasting one will be entirely different and will be orbiting above the earth. Not touching the earth. Abraham was promised land mass on the earth.

_________________
God has two dwellings:
one in heaven, and the other
in a meek and thankful heart.
Izaak Walton
(1593-1683)


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 Post subject: Re: Chuch Age elitism
PostPosted: 02 Jan 2016, 18:02 
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Joined: 25 Aug 2015, 22:51
Posts: 880
Genez wrote:
Anonynomenon wrote:
Hebrews 11:9-16 identifies New Jerusalem as Abraham's city (for him and his seed), yet Rev 21:9 CLEARLY identifies New Jerusalem as the Bride of the Lamb. Christ is the Lamb, and Church Age believers are considered the spiritual seed of Abraham too.


There will be two different New Earths. The Millennium's New Jerusalem will be for the Jews (hence, Abraham and his seed). The second Everlasting one will be entirely different and will be orbiting above the earth. Not touching the earth. Abraham was promised land mass on the earth.



Hebrews 11 is refering to the "city that God built", which is the same a in Rev 21.

It seems that Israel and Church where just candidate pools for the Bride. The actual Bridal Body is probably smaller than Israel or Church.

Milennial earth mirrors the Genesis restoration. New Heavens and New Earth for Eternal State mirrors Genesis 1:1.

Only one Satellite city.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


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 Post subject: Re: Chuch Age elitism
PostPosted: 02 Jan 2016, 19:00 
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Joined: 15 Oct 2015, 17:56
Posts: 103
Anonynomenon wrote:
Genez wrote:
Anonynomenon wrote:
Hebrews 11:9-16 identifies New Jerusalem as Abraham's city (for him and his seed), yet Rev 21:9 CLEARLY identifies New Jerusalem as the Bride of the Lamb. Christ is the Lamb, and Church Age believers are considered the spiritual seed of Abraham too.


There will be two different New Earths. The Millennium's New Jerusalem will be for the Jews (hence, Abraham and his seed). The second Everlasting one will be entirely different and will be orbiting above the earth. Not touching the earth. Abraham was promised land mass on the earth.



Hebrews 11 is refering to the "city that God built", which is the same a in Rev 21.

It seems that Israel and Church where just candidate pools for the Bride. The actual Bridal Body is probably smaller than Israel or Church.

Milennial earth mirrors the Genesis restoration. New Heavens and New Earth for Eternal State mirrors Genesis 1:1.

Only one Satellite city.



You keep saying that... But, only the Christian is the New Creation. Only the Christian is promised the same body as Christ. OT saints will not be resurrected until after the Church is. OT saints will not be returning with Christ at the Rapture. Its only for the Church.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud
command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet
call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then *we* who
are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the
clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be
with the Lord.



OT saints as seen before the Church age began were awaiting the kingdom with the Messiah ruling *over* them. In contrast, the Church is looking forward to ruling *with* Christ.

OT saints were not a Royal Priesthood. The Church alone is.

1 Peter 2:9

But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation,
God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of
him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.


Sorry.. You're not making a genuine point. Its only subjective conjecture. There is no connecting of the dots. Just a leap. And, then you leave it to others to disprove what you have not really proven. <shrug>

Keep in mind there are at least two different races of angels mentioned in the Bible. Job 38:6-7. Certain ones called "sons of God" and those called "morning stars." Lucifer was of the "morning star" category. Lucifer means "bearer of light." Angels are two types, just as there is a differentiation between the Church and all other saints.

_________________
God has two dwellings:
one in heaven, and the other
in a meek and thankful heart.
Izaak Walton
(1593-1683)


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