Snooping 'Telemetry' is Compulsory, and uptake stagnates!

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Snooping 'Telemetry' is Compulsory, and uptake stagnates!

Post: #5 brainout
11 Aug 2015, 01:07

EDIT: For the source text on the hitlerian EULA terms which apply to Win10 and all 'services' now offered, click here. For the latest (11/12/15) numbers game pandered, click here. Or, for the pandering about business uptake, click here.

Upshot: Win10 right now, Thanksgiving 2015, hovers at a stagnant 110 million DEVICES. Just google on the number, notice how the articles using that same number, go from the beginning of October 2015, all the way until Thanksgiving, no higher numbers given by MSFT. So look:

  • Technically, MS rolled out Win10 in October 2014.
  • Two years prior, it was Win8: lifecycle start was Halloween 2012, per https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/lif ... r=FilterNO .
  • As of the end of September 2013, Win8 had 110 million USERS, per http://winsupersite.com/windows-8/there ... ws-8-users
  • But Win10, as of the beginning of October 2015 and ever since (even until now), by MSFT itself only claims 110 million DEVICES: bearing in mind many remain inventory unsold, even as probably the Win8 count did, since you had to install either one, to get it to count at all. And, there are more types of devices onto which Win10 can be installed yet sitting unsold, too.
  • All this, comparing a FREE Win10 with a nearly free Win8.
  • So Win10 is doing worse.

So of course to counter all that, a statistical LIE needs to be created, and Ed just did one on 11/28/15, click here. Notice how he covers up the lie by using the word 'government', as if the stats he's providing, came from them. But they really don't. They come from Ed massaging the numbers, and not following due statistical protocols like, group by TYPE for the same PERIOD that applies. Here, the period that has to apply, goes back to OCTOBER 2014 (more on that follows below). But he cuts it short, to make the Win10 gain look bigger.

Also, he doesn't leave out devices which cannot run XP or Win7. So it's not an apples to apples comparison. Of course, he doesn't KNOW the models, as that data is not collected. He also doesn't know if people were paid or incentivized to use Win10 over some other device, to get the count up. No one can prove that merely by accessing. He also lies by only looking a online usage, never mind that most machines are not online, and most that are online aren't accessing government sites, so you cannot tell if the access is 'representative' of all access by all machines for the same period. Even that doesn't tell you anything about what machines are USED each day.

Worse, online would naturally be skewed to machines which can go online, or are perceived to be safe enough to go online: example, I have 15 XP and Win7 machines, but only two go online. The others are working machines. So that means the online measure is very skewed.

Finally, he creates a fallacy, that Win10 is eclipsing Win7. There's no evidence of that at all. There's no tally of whether the NUMBER of devices INCREASED OR DECREASED over the period, so the percentage would be less meaningful. So his conclusion roughly amounts to fallacy: <i>if more vanilla is eaten, it must mean more chocolate was refused.</i>

Changes have to be accounted for, kinda like balancing your checkbook. If Win7 numbers go down, is that because the Win7 machines are at work, and people accessing are not at work, so not using Win7 at home? Which could mean, THE SAME USERS are accessing more often than once (very likely) from different devices, depending on what they have on hand. In which case, it does NOT mean that Win7 (or 10, for that matter) is increasing or decreasing, but rather the CONVENIENCE dictates.

One could go on with the variants and their explanations. In short, as usual Ed Bott is lying. He's paid to do that. So you should know to disregard him and all other Win10 fanboys.

Oh well. :winvmac:
========
Older, parallel topics are here; then for proposed solutions, here, and here in bleepingcomputer. Search in this page on '14' to get to the '14 million' and '75 million' section to show how the pundits (but not MSFT) lie about the numbers; search on 'Lenovo' to get to the manufacturer links proving Win10 is being used to sell new pre-installed Win7 machines. (So the licenses are Win10, but not the devices.)

Original text (except where updated with 'EDIT'), and the previous sentence's addition, follow below the ===
==========

'Telemetry' is a fancy word for 'snooping' on you. Following you around, like those aerial movies where our troops watched Afghan and Iraqi soldiers during the recent wars in those countries. In short, spying: keeping visual track of what you're doing, and storing that information on some computer somewhere.

When you click 'OK' or 'I Agree' to installing Windows 10 or its 'services' (even if not using Windows 10), you agree, per its Paragraph 2 of the incorporated-by-reference Microsoft Services Agreement, that a) Microsoft may snoop on everything you have and do with your machine; and, per its Paragraph 3, you agree that b) Microsoft has the right to tell you how to behave; and if you do not behave as Microsoft says, it can bork your machine, remove what's on your machine, etc. Doesn't matter what privacy settings you use. This is part of the License.

Unbelievable, huh. So I had to make a video reading aloud so you can SEE those legal provisions at Microsoft's own website, click here. Links in that video's description, lead you to the actual MSFT official LICENSE you would have agreed to, had you put Windows 10 on one of your machines. Scary stuff.

No other product or service you can buy anywhere in the world, has such strictures. The scope of this Big Brother 'contract' is all-encompassing, and affects everyone who talks or works or engages with you, if YOU have Windows 10. Or, if you don't but they do. And the Microsoft License terms are utterly blatant about all this.

. :bouncegrab: .


Yet worldwide, there's an uncanny denial of that fact. It's as if all the 'authorities' in the world had suddenly gone blind. Which means, they know and are covering it up, or .. they actually don't understand the plain words in the license.

For witness: the press doesn't much cover this problem (click here). That thread has now been locked, so you can if you wish, continue discussion here.

Very strange, that a press usually so concerned with civil liberties, is quiet here. Only occasional and mild articles, appear, click here. Oddly, the license is still not noticed as the real problem, and instead the geeks focus on the meaningless workarounds, click here. But it won't matter that the workarounds exist. You agreed to the snooping. It's contractual! :shock:

Either they don't understand how Windows 10 breaks new ground in snooping, or they won't care. That's not good.

So faced with an overwhelming denial of the obvious, you'll need to do your own homework in the source text of the Microsoft License: to see it on your own machine, type 'winver.exe' in the Start or search box. Then click on the link that results, which opens a dialogue box: within it, is a blue link ending with, License Terms. Click that link, and read. You'll be amazed.

Prior to Windows 10, the license terms are normal. But in Windows 10, as the above links show (and your own computer will prove, if you've installed it) -- in Windows 10, you've just agreed to be GOVERNED BY MICROSOFT. Not, by your country. Unbelievable, huh.

You can also find that same text in your root Windows directory, in the subdirectory System32, and the file itself is named 'license.rtf'. So if you're already unfortunate enough to have installed Windows 10, then you will see the same text linked and read above, on your own machine. Undeniable.

So then, everyone's illiterate, obtuse.. or prevaricating. For atop all this, is the blatant falsehood that oh how 'successful' Windows 10 was at launch.

    So notice what the provable truth is, instead: 4.5 million users are 'Insiders' since last October; the worldwide base of MSFT employees and contractual labor, is nearly a million. To test the 'continuum', presume each has but two devices. Okay, then 5.5 million x 2 is 11 million.. using Windows 10 from October until launch on July 29. If more than two devices person (say laptop tablet phone or desktop laptop phone) -- then that total, increases.

    So if on July 30 Microsoft's Mr. Mehdi writes that there are 14 million devices using Windows 10 (not necessarily activated, just using).. well, then how many actually downloaded and activated Windows 10 in the past 24 hours? Can't be more than 3 million DEVICES, and probably half that many people.

    But the media from Computerworld to Zdnet to others worldwide chirping all-hail-Microsoft over that past 24 hours, well.. they all claim 14 million activations over the past 24 hours! Really?

    Even today, in Computerworld an ESTIMATE claims that in the first two weeks there are 45 million devices running Windows 10? REALLY? And the fact that the OEMs had to do their pre-orders since last October doesn't count for anything?

    EDIT, 8/26/15: now even more, look at the lies. 75 million devices! Really? Compare the pundits versus the original source, a mere tweet about totals, again from Mr. Mehdi!

    EDIT: New video on this topic (9/4/15), here.

    Does no one think about numbers and how they are misused just as much as Bible verses are distorted? Now, this isn't about whether you believe in Bible, but surely in your lifetime you've seen its verses abused. So, it's an apt parallel. Misuse/Abuse of what purports to be an authoritative source, is the underlying issue.

    I tried to explain that misuse, here. Since the PC World link won't go to my comment directly, it's reproduced below:

    brainout wrote:More like yellow journalism. Mehdi has been misquoted all along. Now think about those numbers.

    A. 4.5 million Insiders since LAST OCTOBER, and I am one of them. Picture 2 devices each. Then add all the MSFT employees and contract labor, and all the freebies MSFT gave to pundits. So that adds say another million. So 5.5 million. SINCE LAST OCTOBER. So double that, and you have 12 million devices, by the time July 29 comes. So on July 30, Mehdi blogs that there were 14 million DEVICES (not users, not activations, just devices) running Windows 10.

    B. Now, factor in the OEMs who contract to buy the new OS, SINCE LAST OCTOBER. So now, 75 million minus 14 million, leaves 60 million, the approximate number of OEM licenses for Windows 8 also by its launch.

    SO NOTICE WHAT IS NOT SAID: how many such machines SOLD, how many activated, how many still using, what rate, how many installs actually didn't revert.

    C. So now go to some computer manufacturer's site and search on the new laptops or desktops, search by operating system: Lenovo, then to Dell, then to HP and notice that you can still buy WINDOWS SEVEN with 'downgrade rights'. At Lenovo, it's a Win10 license with downgrade rights so installed instead, is Windows 7. At Dell, it's often 8.1 with downgrade rights, but installed is Windows 7. HP is similar.

    So they are preinstalling Windows 7, not 10, on the machines, but using the Win10 'downgrade rights' clause (I think it's Para 5 in the EULA) to justify installing Windows 7. Or, using an 8.1 license to do that, the manufacturers vary.

    So to MSFT, that counts as Windows 10, but it is not. So much for the typical prevarication that is MSFT and the pundits who leave their brains in the outhouse. :)


    Articles mindlessly kanting the false meaning, are here and here and here. I think they mean to drown out reason. That's what religionists do, when they arrogate Bible interp, as if God shouldn't speak for Himself.
Do you smell a rat..? A replay of the lying hype for Windows 8? SAME STUFF SAID THEN AS NOW. Hmmmm.

So too, all these sychophants in the computer magazines and elsewhere, disturbingly act as one hive mind, calling anyone criticizing this obviously-unconstitutional license policy, 'Luddites' and 'Microsoft haters', 'tin foil' and 'conspiracy nutters'.. well.. then you know they are religious bullies. Which, is your other big warning to STAY AWAY from Windows 10. MS has its own SS, now.

So read it all for yourself, don't take my word for it: else, you'll not have strength to resist the Borg infecting so many. You'll think you're crazy when you view the source text, yet almost everyone 'public' denies it? I feel crazy, writing this post...

So read the links above and on your own machine; note the undeniable proof that, repeat: In Windows 10, this snooping is mandatory. Even if you get some functional privacy, you gave carte blanche authorization over all your 'content'. And, MSFT can brick your machine if you do not adhere to its own 'Code of Conduct'. And, no matter who else you correspond with, MSFT will have a right to know about it. ANYTIME. So you are open to be sued by whoever you correspond with, to the extent they do not use Windows 10. For to the extent you use Windows 10, all activity on that machine, including your webcam, microphone, "typing, inking and voice" (MSFT's own words) -- they get to snoop it all. You said 'yes'.

Conversely, even if you refuse Windows 10, anyone with whom you correspond, if THEY use it, YOUR information is disclosed to MSFT from THEIR device(s). So you are MADE a party to their Agreement even if you never use Windows 10!

So to protect yourself, it would be a good idea to tag your emails with the following disclaimer: this email, and/or its attachments, was neither produced nor sent via Windows 10. Should you receive it on a Windows 10 device, your privacy will be compromised: see your End Users License Agreement Paragraph 1b. Thus you've done your own due diligence in warning those who trust you.

A good lawyer or doctor or anyone who keeps confidential material from others, realizes right away, that a) this is a litigation nightmare for everyone, especially MSFT, and b) it's unconstitutional, in just about every nation on earth.

And if you're one of those Armageddon movie makers (you know, the cheesy Left Behind junk) -- you see here, a plausible 666 scenario.

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'Telemetry' output mapped...

Post: #39 brainout
13 Aug 2015, 06:19

For the latest article on how you can't turn off the snooping, even after you play with the privacy settings, Click here.

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Counter MSFT SNOOPING 'Telemetry' in Windows 10!

Post: #467 brainout
01 Sep 2015, 17:25

I was just reading Forbes a few minutes ago, on how Win7 and 8 are also getting snooping KBs put into their updates, and the following occurred to me. I posted it there, but also here for easier reference.

Here's an idea for a different type of anti-snooping device which just occurred to me as I was reading these comments: we'll call it 'FakeSpy' or 'MaskMe' or 'DisInfo', which is actually a trick used by government spying agencies around the world, made famous in 'North by Northwest' starring Cary Grant. Create a 'Mr. Kaplan', a fake set of data to phone home to the MS mothership. Surely if someone can come up with DoNotSpy tools, then someone can come up with FakeInfoForSpy tools.

What makes this idea especially important, is that if you correspond with anyone else (and you do), you are protecting THEIR data as well as your own, which means less likelihood of being sued by them. We all want that.. right?

Of course, MSFT will then have a load of bupkis datamining, but serves them right for not giving us the option to CHOOSE what they get. Paragraphs 2 and 3 of the aka.ms/msa in the EULA Paras 1b(i) and 14, demand they slurp everything; at the end of para 3b, they even affirm they will be unable to slurp all of it. Fine: so what they slurp will be FAKE. Image

Were I younger, I'd develop this software myself, so please.. someone else do it? You will make millions, if you do. Image

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Re: SNOOPING 'Telemetry', is Compulsory in Windows 10!

Post: #469 brainout
01 Sep 2015, 20:47

But oh boy the spin in Magazine articles wants to drown all this out! Oh, PC World has an article saying that Win10 is outselling Win7?

Claims about Win10 being stronger than 7, are laughable. Had the writer done his homework, he'd learn that the Big Three are using Win10 licenses TO SELL WINDOWS 7 VIA DOWNGRADE RIGHTS which otherwise they couldn't do.

In other words, they preinstall Windows 7 not 10, and then the license allowing you to buy a new Windows 7 machine (else verboten) is 'umbrella'd' by either a Win8.1 license, or Windows 10. There is no Windows 10, installed! No Win8, installed! But rather, Windows 7!

All this, the writer could have learned, if he did what I had to do last week, and VISIT THE SITES of Lenovo, then to Dell, then to HP. Click on the work machine of your choice, lap or desk, then select as your operating system, Windows 7, and you'll see 'downgrade rights' very prominently displayed in each of those manufacturers' sites. Lenovo, is doing it as a downgrade right from 10, Dell from 8.1, and HP a bit of both.

SO THEN WINDOWS 10 IS NOT SELLING, BUT IS AN EXCUSE TO SELL EARLIER WINDOWS. A little homework goes a long way.

Also, search on '14' which also exposes the lie about how many Win10 sales there are, not over a month but SINCE LAST OCTOBER, source versus hearsay, here: https://www.brainout.net/frankforum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5 . The Lenovo then Dell then HP links are also there.

Do the writer's own homework for him. For clearly he didn't.

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Re: SNOOPING 'Telemetry', is Compulsory in Windows 10!

Post: #471 brainout
01 Sep 2015, 21:55

Here's jlongino's comment in response to this ZDnet fluff piece glossing over the problems -- longino's retort is written so well, I've got to copy his retort, here. Did advise him of the quote and gave him the link, so he can rebut me if needed:

jlongino wrote:jlongino
6 hours ago

Wow, talk about a white-wash.

The furor over Windows 10 privacy is overblown, but Microsoft was caught flat-footed by the first wave of criticism and still hasn't figured out a reassuring explanation for what is, . . .

Ed, they've had nearly a year to figure it out, I don't believe they were caught flat-footed at all. You do your readers no favor by totally dismissing the privacy issues. You're saying that the increased invasiveness over previous versions is a perfectly reasonable design. I call BS.

MS has the insider program, of which I was willingly a part. Since you think the rollout was remarkably smooth, you would have to agree that the telemetry and feedback gathered through the program probably played a large part. Fine, MS should reserve the most invasive (changes since Win7) for the insider program only. They can use whatever default settings they please for it. For the public versions, the default options should turn off most, if not all of the phone home settings. If/when the user wants to use Cortana or search or Edge, they should be informed of what telemetry is involved and asked if they still want to continue. The same with every other app or utility that wants to use telemetry. How is that so hard? That's basically how most apps, in general, work.

Users should never have to opt-out of privacy settings, they should be disabled by default. By failing to do so, MS is using sneak-ware tactics.

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Re: SNOOPING 'Telemetry', is Compulsory in Windows 10!

Post: #472 brainout
01 Sep 2015, 22:57

And here's another great comment in the same article, by Sannas30 (he/she makes a lot of worth-reading comments). Copied, below:

Sannas30
9 hours ago

Ed Bott please 'RESEARCH' before you post as 'FACT' Your personal opinion of specific details is not fact its your opinion and to be honest with a lot of people even your replacement at PC World disagreeing with you, then I would have to say your out of touch with reality. Lets look at your points in reality:

A relatively problem-free roll-out; at least on this point you admit you have taken an unscientific approach to it never-the-less its still your own opinion not 'FACT' You are an journalistic author, do you understand what that it? Let me quickly remind you "A reporter is a type of journalist who researches, writes, and reports on information to present in sources, conduct interviews, engage in research, and make reports." I don't think you will find anything there that says live in fantasy land of my own ideals.

Privacy Paranoia: To start linking to your own article that doesn't contain any research to back up your claim that its paranoia is 'NOT' providing evidence to the contrary. Its just an inflation of your own ego that you believe your right with no actual evidence to support your concept. Despite thousands with a technical and legal background stating that the terms and EULA offers the OS open to you being spied upon through legal, Microsoft, and third parties should Microsoft legally have to or allow it through their own accord. On this matter why don't you engage with a contractual lawyer and discuss the terms of the EULA and TOS and see if indeed it does what a lot of people are saying it does, this is after all what you should be doing 'RESEARCH'. You state that Microsoft business customers are used to that sort of language, customers aren't. I can assure you that the company I work for has in places major reservations about the wording, so that in no way is a verification about Microsoft's policy here. That's selling again your own idea that this is 'OK', taking the attitude, well if big business is happy, 'me' the little man should be happy too, simply doesn't wash.

"But given that roughly 90 percent of all malware today arrives because the target device is unpatched, it's necessary." Its necessary here is for the fact that forced updating is necessary. Where do you get your facts from Ed? That is such an over casting statement I don't know where to start with it. I'll give you an example Q1 this year Kasperspy carried out an assessment of current Malware issues, they weren't as confident as yourself, in fact they went on to say that there is a massive growing trend of Malware being written directed at Android phones to gain peoples bank card information 40% of which came from installed applications. the NVD are currently stating that 80% of security issues relating to all systems, is in the form of 3rd party software. So where do you get this weird fact from, no security agency agrees with it?

Additionally going back to your business being right statement, if we are to believe business, Microsoft have already back tracked and said that enterprise editions will now support the old system of updating when you decide and what you decide. So if big business is right shouldn't this be allowed across all customers at least giving the option?

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Re: SNOOPING 'Telemetry', is Compulsory in Windows 10!

Post: #473 brainout
01 Sep 2015, 23:22

And here's another great comment, same article:

preilly2 wrote:preilly2
37 minutes ago

We live in a world of frequent corporate lies. We live in a world in which corporations increasingly seek to know every possible detail about their customers, gather all that information into huge databases, and then try to monetize it in any way they can. A certain degree of skepticism and wariness is entirely understandable in these circumstances. To take just one example, W10 has a default service that "Send[s] Microsoft info about how I write to help us improve typing and writing in the future." What do they mean by 'how I write'? Is Microsoft trying to monitor typing patterns? Grammar? Are they logging users' keystrokes? Why is this 'service' opt-out rather than opt-in? We're left guessing. And that's where, in my opinion, some justifiable suspicion comes in.

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Re: SNOOPING 'Telemetry', is Compulsory in Windows 10!

Post: #474 incipient82467
02 Sep 2015, 00:29

brainout, I have seen your posts on the magazine websites and how you are ruthlessly attacked whenever you question MS benevolence. I too have read the Forbes and Ars Technica articles as well as your comments. I am on a metered satellite Internet connection and I noticed that Windows 10 was using bandwidth at a much larger rate than Windows 8. I don't believe the settings in Windows 10 actually do anything. I think they are just eye candy to gloss over privacy concerns.

I live in the US and, for years, our government denied the very existence of the NSA. Since they were outed by Snowden, they have had several setbacks in the courts over their spying on American citizens. I have no proof, but I strongly suspect they have their hooks into MS and will be spying by proxy going forward. I find it hard to believe that MS is only after marketing data after making such a big deal of privacy with their "Scroogled" campaign.

Thanks to your posts and the above mentioned articles, I wiped W10 completely from my laptop. I am writing this in a shiny new Linux Mint install and have kept a small, disconnected W 8.1 partition to run the few Windows apps I still use. When I find suitable Linux replacements, MS will be banned forever. Thanks for the good work and keep it coming.

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Re: SNOOPING 'Telemetry', is Compulsory in Windows 10!

Post: #475 brainout
02 Sep 2015, 00:42

incipient82467 wrote:brainout, I have seen your posts on the magazine websites and how you are ruthlessly attacked whenever you question MS benevolence. I too have read the Forbes and Ars Technica articles as well as your comments. I am on a metered satellite Internet connection and I noticed that Windows 10 was using bandwidth at a much larger rate than Windows 8. I don't believe the settings in Windows 10 actually do anything. I think they are just eye candy to gloss over privacy concerns.

Wow. Your concerns are more than echoed here, new Ars Technica article on Win7 and 8 (I just signed up for it too), which I was reading.

Well, if you have questions on Linux Mint, you know to also go to bleepingcomputer.com, right? Lots of good folks there. I have Mint 17.1 and 13, as you probably know. I'll be glad to help when I can...

As for the implication (did you intend that?) of MSFT having to create all this snooping to defer to NSA, I wonder about that. For Linux is a much bigger pie. So where is the phoning home in Linux? None. There's no home to phone. Would the NSA make hay while the sun shines, yeah -- except, unlike Microsoft, NSA needs a warrant to tap into anything.

In that sense, MSFT is far worse.

Am I missing something?

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Re: SNOOPING 'Telemetry', is Compulsory in Windows 10!

Post: #477 5735guy
02 Sep 2015, 10:30

incipient82467 wrote:brainout, I have seen your posts on the magazine websites and how you are ruthlessly attacked whenever you question MS benevolence. I too have read the Forbes and Ars Technica articles as well as your comments. I am on a metered satellite Internet connection and I noticed that Windows 10 was using bandwidth at a much larger rate than Windows 8. I don't believe the settings in Windows 10 actually do anything. I think they are just eye candy to gloss over privacy concerns.

I live in the US and, for years, our government denied the very existence of the NSA. Since they were outed by Snowden, they have had several setbacks in the courts over their spying on American citizens. I have no proof, but I strongly suspect they have their hooks into MS and will be spying by proxy going forward. I find it hard to believe that MS is only after marketing data after making such a big deal of privacy with their "Scroogled" campaign.

Thanks to your posts and the above mentioned articles, I wiped W10 completely from my laptop. I am writing this in a shiny new Linux Mint install and have kept a small, disconnected W 8.1 partition to run the few Windows apps I still use. When I find suitable Linux replacements, MS will be banned forever. Thanks for the good work and keep it coming.


The case put forward by brainout is indeed 'in part' compelling however part of the reason for the 'ruthless attacks' is due to the ferocity of the correspondence.

Most notably the recent 'Personal Attacks' aimed at Ed Bott on ZDNet which can be referred to below

http://www.zdnet.com/article/no-microso ... indows-10/

http://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10 ... nd-misses/

It is possible to get your point across without making it personal!

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Re: SNOOPING 'Telemetry', is Compulsory in Windows 10!

Post: #478 brainout
02 Sep 2015, 15:20

True, 5735 guy. But it's also factually true that Ed is lying, and I've been warning him about that since 1st or 2nd week of July. He lied about the no-gotchas, he lied about the Insiders not being activated (contradicting himself here), he lied about the 14 and 75 million: the latter, in that very article you quote.

Proof of his lies is here in this thread, links also again below. And above all, he lied about the updates, claiming they were for the lifetime of your device, when in fact 'supported lifetime' means the lifetime of the SUPPORT in MSFT''s own words. And, I made videos demonstrating the EULA and the updates lies, which I gave him, showing in MSFT's own words, how they contradicted Ed.

So, in each case, I accused him to his face. Not, behind his back. Not slander, not libel, but MSFT's own words:
So he's lying or extremely incompetent. So take your pick, liar or inept.

Most importantly, THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE ARE BEING HURT by Ed's lies. So who's going to call him on it? THE EULA IS WRONG. He pretends it's okay. He pretends to have legal expertise, and he insults anyone who disagrees with him. I wasn't the only one calling him on his inaccuracies/lies, in any of his articles.

SO WHAT BETTER RESPONSE CAN THERE BE, when he won't listen to reason and only ignores or insults those who in that same ZDnet article you linked in your post.. who were far nicer than I was? If he's dismissive and nasty to them, then good manners don't work. You hit Genghis Khan with a sledgehammer, as proper discourse clearly won't work.

Why are you being so sychopantic, in light of this?

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Re: SNOOPING 'Telemetry', is Compulsory in Windows 10!

Post: #479 5735guy
02 Sep 2015, 18:38

brainout wrote:True, 5735 guy. But it's also factually true that Ed is lying, and I've been warning him about that since 1st or 2nd week of July. He lied about the no-gotchas, he lied about the Insiders not being activated (contradicting himself here), he lied about the 14 and 75 million: the latter, in that very article you quote.

Proof of his lies is here in this thread, links also again below. And above all, he lied about the updates, claiming they were for the lifetime of your device, when in fact 'supported lifetime' means the lifetime of the SUPPORT in MSFT''s own words. And, I made videos demonstrating the EULA and the updates lies, which I gave him, showing in MSFT's own words, how they contradicted Ed.

So, in each case, I accused him to his face. Not, behind his back. Not slander, not libel, but MSFT's own words:
So he's lying or extremely incompetent. So take your pick, liar or inept.

Most importantly, THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE ARE BEING HURT by Ed's lies. So who's going to call him on it? THE EULA IS WRONG. He pretends it's okay. He pretends to have legal expertise, and he insults anyone who disagrees with him. I wasn't the only one calling him on his inaccuracies/lies, in any of his articles.

SO WHAT BETTER RESPONSE CAN THERE BE, when he won't listen to reason and only ignores or insults those who in that same ZDnet article you linked in your post.. who were far nicer than I was? If he's dismissive and nasty to them, then good manners don't work. You hit Genghis Khan with a sledgehammer, as proper discourse clearly won't work.

Why are you being so sychopantic, in light of this?


I have in fact had disagreements with Ed Bott in the past. Most notably whilst he was singing the praises of the original release of Windows 8. Throughout the correspondence it was at times blunt but 'never' insulting.

The EULA may well be wrong however it is clear Ed is not in agreement with you on this and as such everyone 'including Ed' is entitled to their own opinion. Whether you agree or not with Ed's take on the EULA is not what is at question here but the way you conduct yourself during the correspondence.

The correspondence would be considerably more compelling had you not accused Ed of being a liar and by doing so you are doing yourself a disservice.

Surely you must be able to see this.

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Re: SNOOPING 'Telemetry', is Compulsory in Windows 10!

Post: #480 brainout
02 Sep 2015, 18:42

When Ed titles his arguments calling anyone who disagrees with him spreading FUD and tinfoil hatters, and other egregious names, then it is only right to FACTUALLY NAME what he is: a liar.

I'm not backing down from that, it's a fact. He started the lies, and should be called what he is.

I can understand that maybe you think otherwise. Fine. But mere polite discourse doesn't work with a man who is terrifically callous to the suffering of thousands of Win8 through 10 users. He wrote the same callous way in 2010-2012, and isn't changing now.

Sometimes you have to get tough. If you can't see that, then there's nothing more I can say. But I am indeed grateful you want to be blunt with me. Bluntness is the opposite of lies.

Finally -- and I get this reaction a lot -- many misinformed folk think that if you say you're a Christian you're supposed to be smiley and warm and fuzzy, always chirpy, never an unkind word. To be like that is the same as fawning, lying. Totally anti-Biblical. Bible never says that's being a good Christian, and Christ Himself was just as biting and insulting as the OT text where He talks as God. HONEST is what a 'good Christian' should be. Nice when it's appropriate, and nasty when it's appropriate, and never politically correct, as religionists enjoin.

So if you see me lie, call me a liar. For it's about FACTS, not feelings.

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Re: SNOOPING 'Telemetry', is Compulsory in Windows 10!

Post: #481 5735guy
02 Sep 2015, 20:31

brainout wrote:When Ed titles his arguments calling anyone who disagrees with him spreading FUD and tinfoil hatters, and other egregious names, then it is only right to FACTUALLY NAME what he is: a liar.

I'm not backing down from that, it's a fact. He started the lies, and should be called what he is.

I can understand that maybe you think otherwise. Fine. But mere polite discourse doesn't work with a man who is terrifically callous to the suffering of thousands of Win8 through 10 users. He wrote the same callous way in 2010-2012, and isn't changing now.

Sometimes you have to get tough. If you can't see that, then there's nothing more I can say. But I am indeed grateful you want to be blunt with me. Bluntness is the opposite of lies.

Finally -- and I get this reaction a lot -- many misinformed folk think that if you say you're a Christian you're supposed to be smiley and warm and fuzzy, always chirpy, never an unkind word. To be like that is the same as fawning, lying. Totally anti-Biblical. Bible never says that's being a good Christian, and Christ Himself was just as biting and insulting as the OT text where He talks as God. HONEST is what a 'good Christian' should be. Nice when it's appropriate, and nasty when it's appropriate, and never politically correct, as religionists enjoin.

So if you see me lie, call me a liar. For it's about FACTS, not feelings.


Question:

What is the definition of a good Christian?

Furthermore Christianity is not a religion.

Religion is something that is invented by man Christianity is not.

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Re: SNOOPING 'Telemetry', is Compulsory in Windows 10!

Post: #482 brainout
02 Sep 2015, 23:02

Aha, you want to pursue those issues in some other forum here? Pick one.

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Re: SNOOPING 'Telemetry', is Compulsory in Windows 10!

Post: #566 hupostasis
19 Sep 2015, 22:49

If you go directly under the 'Customer Experience Program' folder in task scheduler, the following text is present for the USB sniffing info:
The USB CEIP (Customer Experience Improvement Program) task collects Universal Serial Bus related statistics and information about your machine and sends it to the Windows Device Connectivity engineering group at Microsoft. The information received is used to help improve the reliability, stability, and overall functionality of USB in Windows. If the user has not consented to participate in Windows CEIP, this task does not do anything.


I'll check to see if the Windows 10 statements are the same for curiosity.

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Re: SNOOPING 'Telemetry', is Compulsory in Windows 10!

Post: #581 hupostasis
21 Sep 2015, 13:19

Apparently Windows 10 also has a 'customer experience program' and the Application Experience statements are still the same as the ones found in Windows 7:
Collects program telemetry information if opted-in to the Microsoft Customer Experience Improvement Program.


Which is a bit disconcerting since, that means the telemetry elements are considered separate from the Customer Experience Improvement Program.

Well, I definitely don't 'need' telemetry running on Windows 7, so to remove it:
Remove these updates:
KB3068708 Update for customer experience and diagnostic telemetry
KB3022345 Update for customer experience and diagnostic telemetry

Kill the diagtrack service:
sc stop Diagtrack
sc delete Diagtrack

(although doing so may affect your support with Microsoft since it is a diagnostics 'tracker' after all, but I suppose that would be akin to if your doctor walked around everywhere you are 24/7)

And (optionally) disable the customer experience improvement scheduled tasks. You could delete them, but that provides no benefit and IN THE EVENT you need to turn them back on, it won't be difficult.

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voyager529's comment re SNOOPING 'Telemetry', is Compulsory in Windows 10!

Post: #600 brainout
28 Sep 2015, 21:12

See this post just in on ZDnet with MSFT trying to disavow its snooping, by voyager529 (I broke up the paragraphs, otherwise it's a verbatim paste)

voyager529 wrote:51 minutes ago

tl;dr: Yes, I know this is VERY long. That is how much bovine excrement is in this statement from Microsoft. When critically examined, this set of statements proves the need for better privacy controls in Windows 10, and Microsoft's insultingly clear unwillingness to truly address the issues.

"Microsoft has a privacy problem."
Yes, they do.

"Apple sparked a furor over ad blockers with the recent release of iOS 9, for example, but Microsoft built nearly identical tracking protection features into Internet Explorer 9 nearly five years ago."
Internet Explorer has never had an ad blocker enabled. It had a "do-not-track" option, that was opt-in BY THE TRACKERS to honor. Run Ghostery on ZDNet and see the amount of tracking that happens, even when 'do not track' is selected. Thse are NOT the same things, Ed.

"the virulent attacks against Windows 10 this summer came as an unwelcome surprise."
Microsoft sends data out the door with a legalese-at-best set of catch-all clauses, and the pushback is a "surprise"?!?

"Critics have accused Windows 10 of spying on customers and collecting data for nefarious purposes, and those criticisms, despite a lack of supporting evidence, have persisted."

Run Wireshark on Windows 10. I don't care WHY they're doing it, data IS being collected. "Nefarious purposes" is misleading - they're not nefarious NOW, I'll certainly grant you that. However, once they decide to BECOME nefarious, they've got your data - they're not getting rid of the data once they start.

"Windows 10 collects information so the product will work better for you."
And if I decide that the product is stable enough, and wish to roll the dice with no data whatsoever going back to Redomond? Well then, I need to take care of that between my laptop and my modem using PFSense or similar, because Windows 10 doesn't afford that option at a software level.

"You are in control with the ability to determine what information is collected."
Where's the verification? How come Microsoft won't show me the data they're collecting?

"Most of the criticisms I've seen were based on misreading of the privacy policies for Windows 10 and for Microsoft's online services."
Picture a stereotypical Hollywood bad guy, complete with the maniacal laugh, the mustache twirling, and a habit of tying women to railroad tracks. What does the privacy policy allow HIM to do with the data that's collected? Given fully malicious intent, what does the privacy policy LEGALLY allow Microsoft to do with the data collected?


And then he adds (ibid)

voyager529
(part 2)

The thesis of most of these arguments is that Microsoft is /unwilling/ do unwanted things with my data, not that they're /unable/ to do so. A privacy policy protecting a huge amount of data that hinges upon Microsoft's own scruples is an extremely dangerous notion to defend...and no, it does NOT mean that I trust Apple or Google or Amazon any more than Microsoft - you can run a "Replace All" command on this comment response, exchanging "Microsoft" with "Google", and I believe the EXACT same things.

"To operate at its most basic level, Windows 10 collects and uses a limited set of data."
Show me the data.

"To make your device more personal and delightful to you"
My own "personal", "delightful" device does EXACTLY what I want, no more, no less.

"we give you choices to use additional features."
And where's the "send no bits, at all, ever" choice? Because that's the one I want.

"These features are optional, and they work better if Windows 10 understands your interests and preferences."
Give me a copy of Windows 10 that is completely absolved of all of these features, and I'll buy it. With cash. TOMORROW.

"We collect a limited amount of information to help us provide a secure and reliable experience"
...try the forums. There are tens of thousands of people who have provided very thorough, very explicit descriptions of some problems they have had with Windows. I'm not saying that telemetry isn't worth having the possibility of getting, but when there are people explicitly stating opinions and descriptions of problems, and they are being ignored, that tells me that the telemetry is more for Microsoft's convenience rather than the benefit of the users.

"...that ID is essential to tell whether 100 identical problem reports are from a single device or from 100 different devices."
A fair point. The question really is "how isolated" they are. Anyone want to give me a tour of the datacenter? I'm up for a Skype session.

"Basic...Enhanced...Full..."
No details about EXPLICITLY what these contain. MAC addresses? IPs? Geolocation data? Lists of installed programs? I'm pretty sure that my Start Menu is unique...

"Organizations running Windows 10 Enterprise or Education have the option to disable telemetry completely, although Microsoft recommends against it."
Why are these settings only in the Enterprise and Education SKUs? Why does MS not allow this setting, even if it requires a separate download, for regular users?


"software companies have to "collect" your information to carry out your wishes."
They "collect" my wishes by giving me a user interface that enables me to make my wishes known.


And best of all, he linked his own post (I deleted the interim spaces so you can click on it to see the SOURCE TEXT).. which I didn't know he'd done, until making a copy here. So he finishes with,

voyager529
53 minutes ago

Full comment, with line splits, because ZDNet assumes that we are all five years old and can't read more than a paragraph at a time. Also, apparently I can't put in an actual link, despite having commented here for nearly ten years...

http://pastebin.com/YqkFWRED

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Latest confirmation of SNOOPING 'Telemetry', is Compulsory in Windows 10!

Post: #976 brainout
02 Nov 2015, 21:20

Well, our boy Belfiore (who isn't belle and not fiore either), has finally outed what we've long known: yeah, the telemetry is compulsory, just before he sails away from the storm he helped create.

Gordon Kelly article, here. Posted reaction in bleeping computer, here.

Shill reaction and my reply, here.

Of course, you can Google on all this and see the same arguments all over the internet, but it helps to have a few links to start your own research.

Solution is to turn off Windows 7/8.1 updates. For they will force Win10 on our machines, eventually.

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Re: Latest confirmation of SNOOPING 'Telemetry', is Compulsory in Windows 10!

Post: #979 hupostasis
03 Nov 2015, 01:39

brainout wrote:Well, our boy Belfiore (who isn't belle and not fiore either), has finally outed what we've long known: yeah, the telemetry is compulsory, just before he sails away from the storm he helped create.

Gordon Kelly article, here. Posted reaction in bleeping computer, here.

Shill reaction and my reply, here.

Of course, you can Google on all this and see the same arguments all over the internet, but it helps to have a few links to start your own research.

Solution is to turn off Windows 7/8.1 updates. For they will force Win10 on our machines, eventually.


I would argue that telemetry and cortana are actually the LEAST of the worries. The fact that Microsoft claims that THEY get to choose what hardware should and shouldn't be able to use it, means they can axe an OEM whose butting heads with them. So let's say your computer is designed by OEM X who is also designing their own operating system Y that is competing with Windows. Well... instead of withholding licenses to OEM X, they can render windows to be unusable on their hardware if it's detected (since updates are forced / mandatory, MS could load this function maliciously effortlessly through that system). Effectively alienting OEM X's entire client base forcing them to use a different OS or "microsoft approved hardware".

The biggest issue I have is that they're attempting to claim rights over my proprietary data. No, I have to disagree with the EULA, they do not have the right to any of my proprietary data ~ because competitors [could] get a hold of my data, then they can use it and also claim right over the source files... that's anti-capitalist.

Whatever... there's one guy on there who falsely claims that people making the "screaming" regarding the Win 10 EULA don't understand computing. That's something a dotard would say to give himself credibility.

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Re: SNOOPING 'Telemetry', is Compulsory in Windows 10!

Post: #986 brainout
03 Nov 2015, 07:13

Yeppers!

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Threshold Snooping 'Telemetry' is Criminal

Post: #1470 brainout
30 Nov 2015, 16:04

When someone invades your home and steals something in your house, that's called a CRIME of 'theft'. When MSFT does it, contrary to all criminal law and even its own EULA, it's called a 'mistake'. Really?

Ghacks article, here.

Take MSFT to court. A crime has been committed. A crime can be committed by mistake, but it's still a crime, as in when you murder someone accidentally. :bond:

So I wrote a comment on this problem prior to knowing of the ghacks article, here.

Then, to Ghacks as follows, but cannot tell if my comment went through:

brainout in Ghacks wrote:Why isn't anyone talking about what this activity.. is? It's THEFT.

These are not MSFT programs. These are not pirated programs. MSFT is stealing what does not belong to it, from your machine. That it might not take possession of what it stole, is besides the point. It did not have authorization from the other programs' licensors, to do that. It did not have authorization from you, to do that.

Its own hitlerian license Paragraph 3 of aka.ms/msa prohibits illegal activity. It just committed illegal activity, and that paragraph is illegal, for no licensor has the right to impose a POLICING code of conduct on you.

We see here, by means of it STEALING what is on your machine, that such illegal POLICING is being done. And then as often happens with illegal policing, the policing activity of REMOVAL (which is in Paragraph 3b of aka.ms/msa) .. got botched.

Anyone thus affected, has the legal standing to sue MSFT now. A crime has been committed.

And we thus know what the telemetry can do. So the entire hitlerian Win10 EULA paragraph 14 and 'services' also covered alike in aka.ms/msa are in fact backed by a slurping POLICING mechanism as promised in Paragraph 3b of aka.ms/msa . In action proven, here. Caught in the act.

All the 'services' MSFT panders are also under aka.ms/msa . So now you know how MSFT reads that same Paragraph 3. Criminally.

So now any third party data on your device which is confidential, puts you at lawsuit risk, if the device is 'attached' to aka.ms/msa through Win10, or 'services'. So now any of those third parties can sue you to death.

So why aren't there articles covering this? It's not like the problem hasn't been known since JULY!!

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Re: Snooping 'Telemetry' is Compulsory, and uptake stagnates!

Post: #1477 hupostasis
30 Nov 2015, 23:13

It's nice to see it actually in action now, though. Because that's proof that Microsoft can (and presumably will) flag "pirated" software, or software it deems that shouldn't be ran on their operating system.

Of course we already knew this, but the slow reaction towards it will be amusing.

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Re: Snooping 'Telemetry' is Compulsory, and uptake stagnates!

Post: #1492 brainout
01 Dec 2015, 20:31

Well, so far the record means that MSFT removes software which is neither pirated nor its own. That would be like me moving to Washington; and because I live there, all of Microsoft has to do my bidding, or I'll bomb it.

To most, this is ransomware. Those who depend on Windows for a living, are getting the short end of the stick: for this means people will a) stay on old Windows, and b) move to some other platform. So maybe that will make them more money, an unintended benefit of MSFT's hitlerian shortsightedness?

hupostasis wrote:It's nice to see it actually in action now, though. Because that's proof that Microsoft can (and presumably will) flag "pirated" software, or software it deems that shouldn't be ran on their operating system.

Of course we already knew this, but the slow reaction towards it will be amusing.

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Re: Snooping 'Telemetry' is Compulsory, and uptake stagnates!

Post: #1496 hupostasis
02 Dec 2015, 06:02

Well actually I'm going to verify the claims of that article on Windows 10 later and install the mentioned programs and the update. Just to be double sure, I'll post results here later.