FrankForum (Frankness IS Forum)

When writing in the Outer Darkness thread just now, a sort of 'real estate' picture of heaven occurred to me. The generic idea seems sound, especially since it works a lot like galaxies do, with a center, and then concentric circles (galaxies are more like counterclockwise spirals, but I can't draw them well). My drawing below is terrible, but you get the idea. Each 'section' in a concentric circle, is a kingdom headed by a king. The color coding indicates federation or relationship to some king in the innermost circle. 'J' means the New Jerusalem, headquarters of Christ Himself.



Next, some key Bible text. Citations in English are from NASB, not exegeted.

Rev1:6 and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father-- to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Rev 5:10 "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."

Rev 21 paints a picture of the eternal state (often called 'heaven' as well), as follows (highlighting added):



So we have buildings, precious stones and layouts as would be applicable today but of FAR higher quality, and we even have taxes aka tribute (verses 24 and 26) and a hierarchical society (kings).

So that means an economy (Bible term oikonomia, originally used for the entirety of the household with its 'business' of living and taking care of itself). So that means jobs, pay, rest time, the whole bit.

But why a priesthood?

Because inequality goes on forever? At that stage in the game, "king" and "priest" become almost interchangeable? Christ, our High Priest---we've married into His priesthood. There are people in the new Heaven and people in the new earth---and other people? Other people...to come?

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"Do not worry then, saying, 'What will we eat?' or 'What will we drink?' or 'What will we wear for clothing?'---Jesus Christ


"You seem to think because you have chicken to go you're in luck."---G. Lightfoot

Doctors need nurses, nurses need receptionists, pharmacists need technicians. Basically, all kings are servants on some level, but they need lower level representatives so that work might be prioritized and proportionally distributed for total efficiency and maximum effectiveness.

Like Guest said, eternal inequality...so that requires a hierarchy of middle-men to guarantee a perfect ministry.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Book of Hebrews is built around this. Chapter 1 quotes from it extensively, and by the time you get to Chapter 10, you see the New Priesthood.

The fundamental seems to be that the common people need go-betweens. It's not merely about efficiency. There's an ongoing intercession.

So who are the generations in eternity? We got angels, believing OT people, Church=Priesthood entire, Trib and Mill. Alongside, is the Lake of Fire.

It makes immediate sense that King uses entourage and servants to administer His Kingdom(s). But Priests? To Father? So that means prayer and petition and the non-priests visiting the priests? As go-betweens?

It gets to the heart of what 'priest' even means. Someone dedicated to God AS AN OFFICE, whether or not dedicated in his own mind. If you're not a priest you need one, and you need to go to one, in order to 'contact' God. Isn't that the fundamental meaning of the term 'priest'?

In eternity, everyone will be judicially saved, but not all will have soul salvation. What kind of priestly duties would be needed there?

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Well, the souls are 'saved' juridically, so have no sin nature at death, 1Cor15 but you only take the Doctrine with you, gold silver precious stones 1 Cor 3. So if no doctrine, the person is saved yet as through fire (nothing to show for it), ibid.
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So yeah: what kind of priestly duties? If we look at the OT, even to carry out chamberpots as part of the whole spectrum of Temple Service.. you had to be from the sons of Levi.
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EDIT: so here's a horrible thought. The priesthood is needed not because God is disdaining, but because the PEOPLE don't want to contact Him directly. They want the go-between. They don't want close contact. Just as, I want my car mechanic to fix my car, as I don't want to learn how to do it myself, so too many don't want all of what goes with direct intimacy with God. Very chilling, to realize this is a permanent thing. Interesting, that it's not considered a sin (clearly it isn't a sin, because there's a mandate for only one group in the OT to be priests, and even they didn't have to believe in Him).

Witness (NASB used): . .

Preference for a go-between "man of God", even praying TO God for one: Jdg. 13:6, 8; 1 Sam. 2:27; 9:6ff, 10; 1 Ki. 12:22, 24; 13:1, 3ff, 11f, 14ff, 19, 21, 23f, 26, 28f, 31; 17:18, 24; 20:28; 2 Ki. 1:9ff; 4:7, 9, 16, 21f, 24f, 27, 40, 42; 5:8, 14f, 20; 6:6, 9f, 15; 7:2, 17ff; 8:2, 4, 7f, 11; 13:19; 23:16f; 1 Chr. 23:14; 2 Chr. 8:14; 11:2; 24:6; 25:7, 9; 30:16

Exodus 20:19 Then they said to Moses, "Speak to us yourself and we will listen; but let not God speak to us, or we will die."

Luke 5:8 But when Simon Peter saw that, he fell down at Jesus' feet, saying, "Go away from me Lord, for I am a sinful man, O Lord!"

Luke 18:13 "But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, the sinner!'

Revelation 19:10 Then I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

What do mean by 'contact'? Surely you're not including prayer. Everyone has the right to pray, but not everyone has a right to perform certain functions which involve contact. Maybe petitions will be answered by the Church priest. You asked for this, you wanted to know that---here is Father's answer to you. Once we take the reigns, the Angels, unless given a new roll, will probably be retired somewhere, so somebody has to take over the roll of messenger. Also, the priests of ancient Israel were in an office that taught the people about Christ through ritual. Maybe ritual will be totally disbanded (maybe not) but that still leaves the priestly dynamic of teacher. Don't have doctrine enough on your 'level' to understand this problem? Well, here's the answer, according to God's word. And if that is how it will work, then many Christians of the priest class will necessarily be impotent in that roll, because they never learned it themselves. They will be onlookers, just like an emasculated man watching another man dancing with all the women folk. All of this is speculation, of course. There's too many unknowns. It is a very interesting topic you've raised.

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"Do not worry then, saying, 'What will we eat?' or 'What will we drink?' or 'What will we wear for clothing?'---Jesus Christ


"You seem to think because you have chicken to go you're in luck."---G. Lightfoot

Just saw your edit. Adam didn't have fear of talking to God before he sinned. But that was Jesus Christ he was talking to in the Garden. And in eternity He will be walking around with a glorified body like everyone else, so maybe if this dread is there in eternity, it is for Father, not Son.

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"Do not worry then, saying, 'What will we eat?' or 'What will we drink?' or 'What will we wear for clothing?'---Jesus Christ


"You seem to think because you have chicken to go you're in luck."---G. Lightfoot

Yeah, I edited it again. Not saying I like what I'm posting, k. Point seems to be that just as people don't like to pray now, they go to some 'expert' instead, just like I don't tinker with my own car. As if God were a commodity, a chore, something to cross off your todo list, hence they regard prayer or anything connected to Him, as a 'work'. Which means, they don't like it.

Shuddering, k.

k

Just trying to think it through.

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"Do not worry then, saying, 'What will we eat?' or 'What will we drink?' or 'What will we wear for clothing?'---Jesus Christ


"You seem to think because you have chicken to go you're in luck."---G. Lightfoot

I snipped and italicized what seem to be the most parallel parts. The hierarchy would be King as Chief Teacher and Role Model ( ) and then on down.

A good bit of this society in the eternal state is low tech. Maybe like Star Wars, where only certain kinds of functions are high tech but the rest is mostly people-oriented and hand labor. To teach.

So the higher-echelon have a retinue (not 144K, but large), each one doing limited things (it's more for the social function of nearness and learning, kinda like our spiritual life now isn't about doing).

Then the retinue member(s) goes home at night or on leave, and everyone distant in that town hears his reports.

Kill me now. I hate this. But what other conclusion is there?

Everyone will be happy in heaven with whatever roll they have. No regrets after the JSofC. So why have them now? The perfection of God's ordering will make perfect sense to us once we're there. Of course, I'm not telling you anything you didn't already know. I'll think on it further and come back if I have anything else to add.

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"Do not worry then, saying, 'What will we eat?' or 'What will we drink?' or 'What will we wear for clothing?'---Jesus Christ


"You seem to think because you have chicken to go you're in luck."---G. Lightfoot

"However, as it is written: "What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived" -- the things God has prepared for those who love him."

This is were I keep ending up. lol. Apparently, the devil's not in these details.

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"Do not worry then, saying, 'What will we eat?' or 'What will we drink?' or 'What will we wear for clothing?'---Jesus Christ


"You seem to think because you have chicken to go you're in luck."---G. Lightfoot

This makes a lot of sense. Most social people like to interact with other people. It's something they understand. If God is foreign to you, then chances are you'll be uncomfortable talking with Him. Personally, when I first started studying doctrine, it was really hard for me to pray. It felt like a foreign concept. As I learned more, I began to feel more comfortable in prayer. I guess as priests, we would be screening prayers, delivering messages, teaching, and whatever manual duties there are to do in heaven. Really its not all that different than what I do now, only I'm in medical. It sucks only because as a sinner, I have to serve sinners under a hierarchy of sinners, but it'll be different in God's kingdom.

No sweat.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

You both make good points. And yeah, the promise is that it's beyond our wildest dreams, including Eph 3:20ff. I guess I'm freaked out at what those dreams, are: that people won't want Him then, either. That's a huge turnoff for me. Yet He keeps on explaining that it won't be a turnoff, then, Eph1:15-23, the anaphora using epainon..doxa in Eph 1:3-14, Isaiah 54:1, without which, I can't even brush my teeth. So: it's certainly not a turnoff for Him!

Flabbergasted, here.

Does not a priest represent men to God? Well.. I believe that the Lord as "our Husband" will represent the Father to us intimately. (One flesh) That ability will be unlike the non-church age believers who were not made a new creation in Christ. And, as priests? We will represent what we received from Our Lord to the other believers who were not a part of the Church age. We are His Bride... (They are his children).

Only the Church is the Bride of Christ. Not all believers... Not all are privy the intimacy with Deity.

Our home will always be Heaven. The other believers will find their eternal home on the new earth (the home of righteousness), not Heaven. We (Christ and His Bride) as priests, with Christ as our High Priest. We will be commuting back and forth to the new earth. Our mansion which was prepared for us will always be waiting for us back home in Heaven. (Philippians 3:20)

_________________
God has two dwellings:
one in heaven, and the other
in a meek and thankful heart.
Izaak Walton
(1593-1683)

@Brainout

Why eternal priesthood?



Why will kings of new earth have to visit New Jerusalem to present their glory? Maybe we will be involved in regular conferences (and brunches).

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

I couldn't find any verses that differentiate between different tiers of believers and where they'll be placed. I did find some verses where one could assume after old earth and old heaven are melted away, there would be a new heaven and earth (if you don't consider a "new heaven & earth" are collective as one):


Now, if there is going to be a "new heaven" reserved exclusively for the church age believers... then that contradicts to the non-church age believers who also have inheritances (and unbelievers for that matter). As *every* human has an inheritance standing by. So... if inheritances get shifted, or if some aren't present in the church age dispensation-- that would mean some inheritances would have to be re-allocated to new heaven from new earth. Which wouldn't make sense to me.



So if you could:
#1 provide verses that explain what qualifies for where believers are going to be placed (Philippians 3:20 isn't going to do it for me)
#2 explain how dynamic inheritance relocation works between new earth and new heaven

Else I'm going to assume new Jerusalem is one collective place that IS a "new heaven" and a "new earth".

That's not answering why, Gene. No sin in eternity, so why a go-between? Why a representation?

I'm not disputing it, but rather asking the question to flesh out the whys. I know only some of them.

Helps us focus on the meaning of our priesthoods NOW.

So back to the question: WHY, when in the eternal state there is no sin?

Well, instead of saying 'taxes' and 'tribute' it says 'glory'. As a synonym. So there is payment by vassal kings. Which means a whole society which at some basic level, is hierarchical. So then WHY..?



EDIT, due to thinking over reply here to hupostasis:

I've said this 1000 times and we all know it instinctively, that since Christ's THINKING paid for sins (as we all know from Scripture and have heard Thieme say a billion times, he's infamous for that) -- then it stands to reason that thinking pays for the shortfall, too:



Greek verb is husterew, to fail to reach the finish line in a marathon race. That plays really well to Matt22, for the etymology is like arriving late, not fulfilling the conditions, lacking, one's own fault (or not, but the original meaning connotes self is responsible). Go look it up in BDAG for the most info. Thayer is okay too, BDAG is better.

Ergo the hierarchy, very similar to why we have them now: the higher skilled IN THINKING LIKE GOD 'compensate' for the lower-thinking. That's a substitutionary payment, a priestly function.

So although we all know this, we don't apply it to ourselves. Has nothing to do with sin, but the other 'prong' in the indictment. And so learning and living on Bible PAYS, which is of course familiar to those of us under Thieme, who kept talking about it buying time (Col 4:5, Eph 5:6, KJV has best trans there).

SO EVEN IN ETERNITY, TIME HAS TO BE REDEEMED (lit., 'ransomed') by the high quality of thinking in aggregate, paying for the more common lower thinking in both heaven and hell. So it is a priestly function.

Then.. and now.

So look at the scary ramifications: EVERY SECOND WE BREATHE IN THE SPIRIT, we who are thinking doctrine WHEN thinking it, are deemed to be PAYING something to God. That in turn justifies the world turning. I covered that a lot in the howgodorchestratestime vimeo channel, but here it's also applicable to the eternal state.

The 'sweet aroma' of HIS THINKING IN US.. pays. Now. Later. Substitutionary. For the shortfall.

So He died to save us juridically, so that we could GET His Thinking in us to be a body thinking like Him more and more every day.. forever. And most of us won't be doing that at all until we die. But then the 'shortfall' will be gradually reducing every day (principle of infinity in math). So the volume and quality of that thinking which Omniscience NOW sees always since eternity past is so pleasing.. BINGO, DECREE TO CREATE.

That's GLORY, the epainon anaphora.

Eph 1:6 eis epainon doxzes tes charitos autou
(lit., resulting in the praise of the Glory of His Grace, purpose of adoption)
Eph 1:12 (eis to einai hemas) eis epainon doxzes autou
(lit., with the result that we become the praise of His Glory, firstfruits analogy -- remember that's an ANNUAL thing)
Eph 1:14 eis epainon tes doxzes autou.
(lit., resulting in praise for His Glory, DOWNPAYMENT purpose for eternity.)

So look: epainon tes charitos autou. Channel about the anaphora and that meaning, is here. Really heavy stuff. Central video showing the anaphora, however is here:

https://vimeo.com/79633721

Sorry to be so slow on the uptake. This is what the Holy Spirit meant years ago when I talked about it in some very old videos.. by 'Matthew 4:4, always occurring', and I knew that. I was pacing in my living room asking Him WHY having Bible running in the head is so valuable, and the 'always occurring' is a play on how Omniscience works.

Omniscience always knows the WHOLE at once. So the thoughts of Christ on the Cross are RIGHT THERE alongside all your other thoughts, alongside all your sins He paid for, long before you were born. One Big Now. And God likes how it all 'smells'.
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So here's the kicker: right now, typing, what I'm thinking can be in the Spirit or out. If 'in', then it's Matt4:4 always occurring. For HE is turning it into something with full Foreknowledge of what Father LIKES. And to some extent the doctrine is driving my own thoughts, too. Because He already BUILT IT in the past.

Since Christ's THINKING on the cross paid for sins (b'dato yatsdiq), then by extrapolation HIS THINKING IN US pays for all that other thinking going on right now and later and in the past. Additionally. Dividends.

It's not merely the sin thinking which He paid for, but all the other thinking: superficials, politics, meaningless pursuits, the whole of human endeavor including and especially its philosophies.. all drek. By contrast, His Thinking burgeoning daily in whoever's learning it.

Shocking.

That's the model for each of us. That's why Paul writes Romans 8. It's the blueprint for all this. The whole story. I didn't see that until just now!

Do y'all see anything wrong or contradicting, this stuff? Thank you for your time!

@Brainout

What if in New Jerusalem, the visiting rulers of Earth will be visiting conferences that are segregated by class and held by the corresponding Church Priests? Like we will be ministering to earthly King-priests and those kings will take their ministry back to earth.

Like a priestly circuit.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Yeah, could be. Exchanging ideas and stories of what best helps a people to learn. A sort of heavenly PTA that isn't a PITA.

Only the Church is indwelt by the Holy Spirit. One "flesh" with the Lord who is God. Do we dare think it? We will be messengers of God to those who have not become the new creation in Christ. Its not always about sin. Its about knowing God. The priests taught about God. Its when the people rejected the priests teachings that God raised up prophets who rammed ahead against sin. Its about knowing God.

We being the Bride will "intimately" know God. All others who believe who are not the Church, will always be knowing about God. Never privy to the glories of the Royal Priesthood. We are not just a priesthood. Royal Priests. Royal Priests did not offer sacrifices for others. There was no such thing in Israel...

Like I said.. We are a *new* creation. A new kind of priest. One that speaks God to others, not sin. That will be in the eternal kingdom after the Millennium is over. In the New (permanent) Home of Righteousness.


I am not disputing either. I am just speaking from the doctrine I have in my stream of consciousness. It just comes out. Its like asking me directions when you want to get to a location. I might not give you all the street names and exact mileage, but I will give you landmarks that you should have no problem recognizing.


Now? .. As priests we are to represent ourselves to God. For we are to work out our *own* salvation in fear and trembling. Now, as ambassadors, we represent God to men. There will be no longer ambassadors in eternity, for all will know God according to their design capacity.

But, we are not yet in our resurrection bodies. The Scripture you referenced was about post-resurrection of the Church if I am not mistaken. That is what I addressed. At least, I hope I did.


To represent (as a mediators) God to men, and men to God... who will not be Church age believers, who will not be eternally filled with the Spirit like the Church will be. Being the Bride makes us One with Christ. "The Bride and the Spirit say.."Come" (Revelation 22:17) Our words will be the Spirit's words when being the Royal Priesthood over God's eternal kingdom!

As Jesus spoke the words of the Father, the Church will be speaking the words of the Spirit! Yes.. We are in for something so huge and phenomenal that it can not be imagined. For, we have no means to. Its beyond us as we now are. The Resurrection body will be living a new perception of reality that we have no means to sense now.
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hey? Is there a quote icon to mark what words are being quoted? I have been copying and pasting the quote format manually.

_________________
God has two dwellings:
one in heaven, and the other
in a meek and thankful heart.
Izaak Walton
(1593-1683)

The question is WHY ETERNAL, not why now, and the claim only Church is Indwelt in eternity and that only we Intimately Know Him are not actually proven doctrines in Scripture. Unless I've missed some verses.

Even if those purple-glow statements could be proven from Scripture, that still doesn't answer why a priesthood, when in eternity there is no sin. So if you can demonstrate from Scripture and if you can explain why a priesthood for eternity, I'd be very obliged. Thank you.

As for the quote icon mark, yeah it's a world circle with a link, just after the asterisk in the Full Editor. You can also use the " marker at (often) the far right top or bottom of a post (depends on the skin you're using).

Joel 2 (which was duplicated for the Church) promises Israel that they will recieve the Holy Spirit during the Millennium, and I seriously doubt that would be limited to the Millennium. For the Church, that resulted in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, so I don't see why it would be different during the Millennium.

Rev 20:6 promises that those who are Resurrected at the Second Advent will be priests who reign during Millennium with Christ (so are they king-priests too?).

It doesn't say anything about those who are Resurrected at the end of Millennium becoming priests or even kings.

So we have Church Age king-priests and OT king-priests (including Tribulation martyrs) ruling over the unresurrected.

During Eternal State, (presumably) OT king-priests rule over a hierarchy of non-priestly nobles and peasants (outer darkness). But those earthly king-priests will have to visit New Jerusalem on a regular basis.

So for some reason, non-priestly nobles and peasants will still be separated from God enough to require Priests (even though they aren't sinners).



Maybe the answer is in Eden? But there's no mention of a priest in Genesis between Adam and God, so why would things change?

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

28
“And afterward,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your old men will dream dreams,
your young men will see visions.


Peter was not proclaiming about the indwelling... For, Joel 2:28, speaks of an "on pouring." Not indwelling. When Peter quoted Joel everyone was yet to learn of the indwelling. OT prophets (very few) had the on-pouring. Even evil King Saul was once given the on pouring. The Jews who heard Peter understood on-pouring.

Only His Church has the indwelling given to all.. the Holy Spirit taking up His permanent residence in our body. Only this indwelling is able to cause transformation into the image of Christ, not simply cause a believer to have the power for an enabled action, as with the enduement of the Spirit.

Joel spoke of all believers of the time he was pointing to in the Kingdom on the new earth. Only very few OT believers received the on-pouring. In contrast to the OT way of life, Joel pointed to the time of the the Millennium when all non-church age believers will be receiving the on-pouring of the Spirit. All.. Everyone of them. Peter was speaking only of that phenomena.

_________________
God has two dwellings:
one in heaven, and the other
in a meek and thankful heart.
Izaak Walton
(1593-1683)

30-minute audio below, will help you understand why there is an eternal priesthood..due to the nature of Eternity. (I don't know why the attachment has so many CRs, when read on a cell phone.)

Look at Isaiah 53:5-11. The Hebrew says Christ was Javelin-stabbed with our sins in his soul; it was like a rape; through pregnancy labor OF HIS COUNTER THINKING BIBLE, He gives JURIDICAL birth to our eternal life, as per the contract in Isaiah 53:10.

So eternity is a place where there is a great variety of thinking; so that lower thinking must be balanced, with higher thinking.. so God is pleased with what He hears at all times.

People can get out of hell, so hell has to last forever; but their thinking meanwhile, is bad. So that's where we come in, as counter thinkers in heaven.. as part of our Lord, who is high priest.

All of this is covered in the book of Hebrews. Use 1John1:9 and talk to God about it, as you read.