FrankForum (Frankness IS Forum)

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Could be. How far have you gotten in the Rev tapes? What chapter and verse?

Just starting chapter 2:1. Been focusing on James 4 to build my tolerance with patients at work.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Okay, well let's give this topic a rest until you've heard Thieme cover those points, as he's just getting into them, with 2:1.

@Brainout

Yeah, I'm still trying to hear Thieme out, but progress is slow. I'm really torn between whether or not access to New Jerusalem and Tree of Life is meritorious or non-meritorious.

It all depends on what it means to "overcome" as repeated in the 7 letters. If each letter uses it in the same context, then to "overcome" is Juridical Salvation, not soul salvation.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Yeah, that's why your SEQUENTIAL listening will be important. The thread won't vanish. Rev 2-3 set the pattern, and nikaw is the keyword starting there. So just hang on.

I'm not trying to hurry the thread. Just needed to do something when I woke up too early.

Understood. I just tend to fixate on things that I can't figure out. That's why I opened the music thread, to transfer my focus until I'm ready to come back here. Now I'm fixated on fundamental music theory. Went as far as inventing my own equidistant scale and removing the frets from my guitar.

Feel free to disregard my obsessive ramblings.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Yeah, good point on the parallel to 2nd Meribah. I didn't think about that.

Impossible to renew, though, could mean that nothing WE do can help. Not sure it's a consignment to outer darkness before death. Serious enough, though, what with how the last three stages of reversionism go.

When Thieme was teaching that, I seem to recall him saying that 'impossible' meant 'so long as they don't use 1John1:9', which of course would be true. I'd have to look it up in my notes.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Okay, well the yellow highlighted stuff in Mark 9 is an error called dittography, where you copy a phrase really in Bible, but in the wrong place. Question is, which of the three places is the right one, and the scholars felt that the last one was logically right.

As for the rest of what you're conjecturing, the only thing for sure is that the lapsed Christian is much farther away from Christ. I don't see how you can stretch it to claim the term Gehenna, since that is a metaphor of hell (for unbelievers), nor how you can stretch it to claim a specific period of time.

Point is, if unbelievers are separated from God then so too lapsed believers. 'Lapsed' means those who matured some then cratered, and those who never got with the spiritual life. LOW, bottom-of-totem-pole social standing, so they see Him seldom, have a childish understanding.. maybe forever.

To me, that's worse than hell. For one will have in heaven, Divine Norms and Standards.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Okay, well in v.22, every believer in history has committed those sins at least once. So it cannot be literal, nor be hell, but some kind of comparative metaphor. And we are all guilty so would go 'there'.

So maybe He means something other than what you're claiming.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Okay, but wouldn't the greater sin be not using 1John1:9 and growing in Christ? The other sins are excuses we use to not do those two things, and self-righteousness would be the one sin which makes one think he's 'in' with God, 1John1:8, 10.

I guess I find the stress on individual sins to be red herrings. The resulting carnality means NOT GROWING. The sins were paid for, but the NOT GROWING remains. Christ paid for it too, as the opportunity cost of all creation (think of all the unbelievers as NEVER GROWING for that paradigm).. but you can't live close to God in eternity without enough MD in your head, it would be excruciating.

That's what I mean though. Christ is not stressing spurts of sin, but chain sin complexes that cause the believer to fall out of fellowship for extended periods of time.

If you have a selfrighteous and hate complex, then you might use 1 John 1:9 every now and then (when religious morality is violated), but if you're not taking in and applying doctrine, you'll probably go right back into your favorite sins and stay there for a long time...so long as the selfrighteous believer thinks he is being moral....classic moral degeneration.

Basically these sin complexes are designed to minimize the use of 1 John 1:9. Thieme always said mental attitude sins are the worst kind. Here is proof.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

But still the problem is not using 1John1:9 and taking in DOCTRINE. Doesn't matter WHY one does that. DOCTRINE is the only way to grow out of any sin or sin complex.

See, the emphasis is backwards. GETTING DOCTRINE, not how and what kind of sin you sin. 2Pet3:18, not haranguing about the sins themselves, and Hebrews 11:1-6, which you'll recall is in the context of Hebrews 6, how they don't grow (not how bad their self-righteousness is).

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Okay, so what do you conclude from that about the meaning of Outer Darkness, etc.?

The Outer Darkness is a result of the Soul Dying (experiencing separation from God's thinking) as explained by Mark 8:36.

1) The believer either never grows up because he spends his time in the cosmic system. Or an advanced believer denies Christ (Hebrews 6:6 and Hebrews 10:26). This is described in Luke 8:13&14. No dying grace for these people as long as they refuse to grow, therefore they die sin unto death.

2) When these believers face the Judgment Seat, all of their works are burned away. So instead of the fire being a purifying force, it becomes to them the Gehenna Fire. The idea is, they are like sons being passed through the fire and therefore die (suffering loss) as in the Moloch offerings in the Valley of Gehenna. Its not God's doing, but the individual believer's choice. (James 3:6, Matt 5, Rom 2:5 Matt 10:28).

3) Therefore, the believer who has passed through the Gehenna fire (losing everything) may not enter the Millennial Kingdom (Matt 24:51, Matt 25:10-12&30). I don't know where they will be sent to, but it does seem that they will sit out the entire 1050 years of Christ's reign. The weeping and gnashing of teeth will probably end when the Eternal State begins.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Okay, there are a lot of Bible verses which contradict those conclusions. Rev1:5, 5:10 contradict 3), though of course the never-matured believer won't be a head.

1) Soul doesn't die, and separation isn't technically true either, as the person is in heaven. DISTANT, maybe. But separated, not like hell is.

2) Fire is not literal in 1Cor, 'as though through fire', not actual fire.

Ask God to show you other verses, these just sprang to mind while typing.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Soul atrophy, yes. Thieme even uses the term, in later years, and that makes sense. Atrophy shrinks, as you know. But again this comes from not growing, not directly from sin.

Sin is not the direct cause of soul atrophy, but it is the gateway, and it is VERY addictive. What I gather from Matt 5:16-32 is that Jesus is telling us to let our Light shine (filling of Holy Spirit), and not to let sin railroad us into a Cosmic spiral (covering the Light)...because that is the cause of soul atrophy. When you're in the Cosmic system, you're either not taking in doctrine, or worse, you're not even using 1John 1:9 at all....but it always starts with a tiny sin that grows into a monster. That's why Christ put such an emphasis on removing the things that cause you to stumble.

If Matt 5 is addressed to believers (and I think it is), then how can Gehenna be a symbol for Hell? Why else would Jesus be condemning these sins? I think He's warning us to avoid entry into the Cosmic system.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Because Gehenna is used as a symbol of Hades in other verses, that's why it's a symbol of hell, but the idea of BURNING is separate, as in 1Cor3.

Gehenna was a noxious trash dump.

As to put away what makes you stumble, you can't do that apart from learning and living on doctrine, so the emphasis is still growth, not sin.

My mind went back to the Outer Darkness. Lets say the immature go to the Outer Darkness for the entire span of the Millennium. Why would this be the case? For the protection of the immature believer.

During the Millennium, there will be sinners ruled by sinless resurrected kings. At some point, those sinners are going to reproduce, and some of those offspring will be non-believers. So what keeps the kings from sinning?

The kings will no sin nature, so its not that they cannot sin (that would violate free will), but that they will not be tempted by internal arrogance and will have sufficient doctrine to resist temptation produced by the arrogance from outside parties. Basically resurrected kings will not desire sin and will not be lured into it.

Adam and Eve did not possess sin natures when they were created, so they were not tempted to sin from within. It was Satan's smooth talk that prompted them to sin. What Eve lacked was the desire to apply doctrine and therefore it was her failure to apply doctrine that made her weak. The same goes for Adam; he chose Eve over God.

Therefore the resurrected immature believers would be in a similar position as Adam and Eve. Their souls would be too atrophied to apply the doctrine needed to keep them from resisting socio-environmental temptation. They would not have the doctrinal capacity to serve under Christ, let alone live among the sinners of the Millennium without sinning themselves.

So maybe the Outer Darkness is more of a daycare center for the immature while our Lord and His Royal Priests reign.

During the Eternal State, there will be no sin to tempt anybody (inside or out). Therefore no Outer Darkness is needed there. All sin and temptation will be in the Lake of Fire.

Just a hypothesis.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

I don't know. Depends on whether the ruling is done ONLY by resurrected believers, or not. If ONLY by resurrected believers, then the kings need entourages, some bureacracy. So either not all mature become kings, or not all believers need to be mature to be part of those lower echelons.

I'm sure some are out in space somewhere, not actually on earth. Too many. Thieme speculates sometime in 1999 or 2000 (as part of 1992 Spiritual Dynamics series) that they all come on earth, but are 'cooling their heels', watching and not ruling. But a ruling CLASS is needed, not just a king on his own. So the question is, of WHAT GROUP is the ruling CLASS?

Thats a good point. I wonder if the highest ranks will be kings, and the medium ranks will form the bureacracy?

I somewhat agree with Thieme on the cooling of heels.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

I first tried guessing the total based on some of the Colonel's ad hoc ruminations during 1992 SD, here: http://www.brainout.net/LvS4b.htm#Balancing

Not sure how good it is. Am sure what I then remembered of what Thieme said, is included.

It boils down to whether you have a bunch of Daniels at the top, in which case you don't need many, with a whole lot of underlings who don't have to have matured, like ancient agricultural societies vs. today's modern overloaded system.

Somehow I think the isagogics would mean the older method is better.

@Hupostasis

Why weeping and gnashing in the Outer Darkeness? For the simple reason that they have been excluded from the kingdom.

The issue is maturity, as it takes maturity to maintain a high mental attitude, but the fact remains that there are mental attitude sins. So if a resurrected aborted king is not mature enough, what is to stop him/he from folding under temptation??? The best thing would be to isolate that individual from temptation until the Eternal State.

I don't think there is an Outer Darkness in the Eternal State. There would be no need.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Add into the mix that maybe all of Matthew is metered. It's a running anaphora, much like in the shorter amen legw humin, Anonynomenon.

For look: the exact phrase is used in Matt 8:12, 13:42, 13:50, 22:13, and of course 24:51 and 25:30 as we're discussing in that related thread on its meter.

Distance between end Matt 24 BEFORE the clause 'weeping and gnashing of teeth' and AFTER 25:30's end of clause, is divisible by 7 (2632-1659=973, also 2632-1673, and 2632 is divisible by 7). So are the other occurrences? Why only two, and not all of them?

Kill me now. For if Matt is wholly metered, then so are all the other books, mebbe.

Note that in the parable of the virgins, the line does not exist. Is that ellipsis since a well-known phrase by that point, or since it is omitted there but included at the end, , might there be?

@hupostasis : lol little did we all know that when you brought up this thread it would lead to the and back to this thread to help answer it!

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

@ Brainout

We know that the Outer Darkness is being EXCLUDED from the Wedding in Matt 22, and I still contend that Moses being left on Mt. Pisgah is a direct correlation to the Outer Darkness as well. Both of those emphasis EXCLUSION.

I'll have to revisit the story of Abraham, Melkizedek and Lot. I think that had a kingdom vs Outer Darkness theme too. My recollection on that is pretty vague at the moment.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

@ Hupostasis

Full circle indeed. This Outer Darkness thing has completely shifted my understanding of scripture, and every time I think I've reached a dead end, I find another rabbit hole to explore (especially Matt 24-25 meter).

I know that you do not make a distinction between the human soul and spirit, but maybe you might want to readdress that issue. I think it would help put a lot of things in perspective for you. It certainly resolved a lot of "contradictions" for me. That takes us back to the "three type salvation" topic.

I'm done for the night. Its good to see you back in the forum. God has used this particular thread to change my life...no joke.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

I didn't complete the 1965 Matthew series so don't have notes on Thieme's 'take' on it at the time. Do have the classes, though.

Conventional theological interp is that weeping/gnashing refers to hell/LOF. I think it's much more nuanced than that, a set of parallels, as you both are finding. In particular, the OMISSION of weeping/gnashing clause from the close of the parable of the virgins means they are believers. But can have an 'outside' fate like unbelievers but not as severe (i.e., still saved, still part of the kingdom of heaven just as the parable says, but 'shut out' in some way).

Question is, how to prove the exact precision. I know it's there, but can't see the exact keyword flow right now.

And yeah, my life hasn't been the same since you started this thread, hupostasis.

I was listening to RBT's Rev series, Lesson 457_0155, and I realized that I was overlooking a very important detail. Thieme stated that the Parable of Minas in Luke 19 was Bema for OT believers ONLY (maybe Tribulation believers can be included, don't know at this point). I couldn't figure out why he believed that, and then it hit me; The servants are judged at the Second Advent, no sooner. Therefore, the same can be said about Matt 24:42-51 and the Parable of Talents in Matt 25, since those are Second Advent passages too.

Again in the Wedding Feast Parable in Matt 22, we see the Bema before the Wedding at the Second Advent. And Matt 8:12 is Second Advent too.

Finally, Luke 13:22-30 (which I believe is primarily for believers) is about salvation of the soul, in the same way as those who endure to the end will be saved in Matt 10:22.

So my point is that, Luke 19:11-27, Matt 24:42-51, Matt 25:14-30, Matt 22:1-14, Matt 8:5-12, and Luke 13:22-30 all center around the Second Advent Bema event (not Rapture Bema), and all cases of Outer Darkness and Weeping and Gnashing of Teeth are therefore associated with Second Advent Bema.

So if the Outer Darkness is an exclusion from the Kingdom (and I still think it is Luke 13:28, Matt 8:12), is there any evidence that it will apply to the Church at all?

Possibilities:

1) Church was not supposed to happen, therefore it was not included in the cited verses, but the exact same penalty will be applied to Church apostates.

2) The Church is exempt because it is the Bride.

I'm not convinced that all of Church is the Bride, so I'm going with #1 for now. Part of my reasoning is that Church is the Body of Christ. Adam's bride was a small portion of his own body. Christ is the Last Adam, therefore His Bride will be a small portion of His Body (a portion of Church).

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Well, we don't want to conflate similar events. Matt10:22 (and later Hebrews 10 end) refers to persecution, i.e., the upcoming destruction of Jerusalem, not enduring to be saved spiritually. So is not the Bema, but how to be delivered while still alive down here.

Luke 13:22ff's Kingdom of God and Kingdom of heaven, are they the same? Or is the latter subset of the former? That's a long debate many have. I forget where Thieme came down on it. Luke 13:22 is about salvation, but there are many topics in the chapter, and it's not clear how you can assume that the physical deliverance talked about in Matt10:22 is the same as that in Luke 13:22ff.

I'll have to look up the Rev class in my notes and reply later.

Yeah, disregard what I said about Matt 10:22. Apparently I wasn't thinking very clearly when I wrote that.

I've often wondered about the Kingdom of Heaven vs Kingdom of God issue, though I've never really explored it. Maybe I should do that.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Okay, re the minas thingy in Luke 19 (I've still not looked up my Rev notes): the inner story of giving servants money and the stingy one is in a different overall context versus Matt 25. Looks like the Lord told that inner parable two ways. So the meaning is related yet not the same.

I gotta think it over.