FrankForum (Frankness IS Forum)

No ads, no mods, Frankly Anonymous (you can join w/fake name/email, are not tracked)!
It is currently 18 Sep 2019, 11:52

All times are UTC


Forum rules


GUESTS AND MEMBERS CAN POST HERE. Not moderated, so you are on your own. Spambots and stalkers and anti-semites will be deleted and banned without notice. Else, try to be thoughtful, protect your own privacy, don't swear much (makes one appear infantile), but I won't censor. POLICE YOURSELF.



Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 566 posts ]  Go to page Previous 15 6 7 8 912 Next
Author Message
PostPosted: 04 May 2016, 03:28 
User avatar

Joined: 25 Aug 2015, 22:51
Posts: 880
In Matt 24:1, could the highlighted portion be considered a clause of its own?

Καὶ ἐξελθὼν ὁ Ἰησοῦς ἀπὸ τοῦ ἱεροῦ ἐπορεύετο, καὶ προσῆλθον οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτοῦ ἐπιδεῖξαι αὐτῷ τὰς οἰκοδομὰς τοῦ ἱεροῦ.

I would say its a dependent clause, since it still has a subject and verb, right?

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 04 May 2016, 03:46 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 10 Aug 2015, 16:03
Posts: 1831
Yeah, true.


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 04 May 2016, 04:04 
User avatar

Joined: 25 Aug 2015, 22:51
Posts: 880
Ok, so that 14 syllable dependent clause brings verse 1 to its famed 40 syllables. That would make it the first 'stand-alone' in this meter, but it is in alignment with syllables 201, 915, and 2000.

syll 40--ἐπιδεῖξαι αὐτῷ τὰς οἰκοδομὰς τοῦ ἱεροῦ. (14) To point out to Him the buildings of the Temple

syll 201--καὶ πολλοὺς πλανήσουσιν (21) And many they will mislead

syll 915--καὶ αἱ δυνάμεις τῶν οὐρανῶν σαλευθήσονται. (14) And the powers of the heavens will be shaken

syll 2000--ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν (7) Moreover answering He said

These are just observations. I see a pattern forming, but I don't see meaning.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


Last edited by Anonynomenon on 04 May 2016, 04:29, edited 1 time in total.

Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 04 May 2016, 04:25 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 10 Aug 2015, 16:03
Posts: 1831
Yeah, it was already 40 in the writeup. What do you mean 'in alignment'?


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 04 May 2016, 04:26 
User avatar

Joined: 25 Aug 2015, 22:51
Posts: 880
I bet we could sqeeze more stand-alones out of this meter if we break the clauses into smaller ones. For example, syllables 1968 ends with καὶ ἐκλείσθη ἡ θύρα. That alone is 7 syllables, so how would the years 1991-1998 AD have a Tribulation quality to them?

1968-57=1911 or 273x7

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 04 May 2016, 04:29 
User avatar

Joined: 25 Aug 2015, 22:51
Posts: 880
brainout wrote:
Yeah, it was already 40 in the writeup. What do you mean 'in alignment'?



By alignment, I mean that the difference between syllables 201 and 40 is divisible by 7.
201-40=161 or 23x7

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 04 May 2016, 04:36 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 10 Aug 2015, 16:03
Posts: 1831
Okay, but that will happen a lot. So what's the point of it?


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 04 May 2016, 04:57 
User avatar

Joined: 25 Aug 2015, 22:51
Posts: 880
Well, what if the first 40 syllables is treated as an alternate dateline. If we find more stand-alones, there might be an alternate meter going on. Do you know of anything significant that may have happened in 10 BC?

I found this.

Quote:
Circa 10 BCE – The newly expanded temple in Jerusalem was inaugurated.

From Wikipedia.

Gotta hit the sack, I work early tomorrow.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 04 May 2016, 05:12 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 10 Aug 2015, 16:03
Posts: 1831
Non-sevened numbers aren't datelines, unless in context with sevened numbers, in which case the sevened numbers are still the datelines, and the non-sevening is in their context. John does that, but building on his first letter (his Gospel), which had a dateline of 7 (years after Temple down). So his other letters did use non-sevened datelines to reference the one which was seven.

At least, that's the only one I've found so far using non-sevened datelines. Haven't found any in the OT. Closest is Daniel 9, but he did the same thing: first dateline was 49, and second was 73, but in the context of the 49, as 73 sevens, to tie back to Psalm 90.


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 04 May 2016, 05:24 
User avatar

Joined: 25 Aug 2015, 22:51
Posts: 880
Well, isn't 40 in context of a sevened number, like 49, 63 and 84?

I mean look at 10 BC. Herod the Great's Temple expansion is inaugurated. In the 40 syllables, the Disciples are trying to brag to Jesus about Herod's work. Then, in 70 AD, then Temple and all of Herod's work is destroyed.

So maybe the 40 is a sort of padding, and there is an alternate meter here. I need to break the clauses down smaller to see if there is. This was your idea back in page 2 of this thread.

If so, then 57 might me another non-seven dateline, in context of 63. I haven't even looked at that yet, but there are a few stand-alones that tie to 57.

Ok, going to bed for real this time, I'll try to work on this tomorrow.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 04 May 2016, 05:28 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 10 Aug 2015, 16:03
Posts: 1831
Okay, well the only non-sevened meters I've seen were AFTER a first dateline which IS sevened. Sleep well.


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 08 May 2016, 20:41 
User avatar

Joined: 14 Apr 2016, 13:33
Posts: 8
SORRY for not thanking you guys for your kind replies!
My internet has been down for weeks, and since it got it back up, I've just been hunting around the website for more info. SOOOO MUCH to see! I get lost jumping on the "click here" 's! So when I see something interesting, I just read (or watch) that. (I actually forgot to check and see if either of you had replied to my question!)

I have Hebrew & Greek bibles, but where do I look, HERE, to ACTUALLY figure out your kind of "counting/metering/syllablfication"? I have "PCStudy Bible" software on my desktop with the interlinear Hebrew & Greek bible modules. It has a built-in "pronunciation integrated transliteration" which MIGHT help me. (The Tablet I'm using for the internet is running the Android OS, so your BibleWorks PROBABLY won't have a version for it.)

Again, thanks for your replies!

_________________
Powered by KJV


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 09 May 2016, 00:17 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 10 Aug 2015, 16:03
Posts: 1831
Oh, the 'here' are clickable links. It's really something of a minefield now. Tell me specifically what you're looking for at the moment, and we'll give you the link to THAT each time. Would that help?


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 09 May 2016, 03:07 
User avatar

Joined: 25 Aug 2015, 22:51
Posts: 880
@ Ron

When I first started, I tried using biblehub's interlinear transliteration for Zephaniah 1 in Hebrew, but its not the same. The best thing to do is to learn the Hebrew Alphabet and how to read the vowel point system under the words. Some letters in Hebrew have two forms (stopping quality, fricative quality, and sometimes a combination for consonant doubling as in the word Abaddon). Learning when apply the appropriate consonantal form will help you understand the flow of the text.

These videos were particularly helpful in learning (what I believe) is the closest pronunciation of the Ancient Hebrew Alphabet:

Ancient Hebrew Alphabet by Mikhael Elijah

and

Proper Hebrew Alphabet by Machon Shilo

Now, I had a LOT of trouble learning how to pronounce Ayin, so for that I turned to Arabic:

Arabic Ayin by Maha

To learn the vowel points, I used http://hebrew4christians.com/ .

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 09 May 2016, 19:32 
User avatar

Joined: 14 Apr 2016, 13:33
Posts: 8
@ Anonynomenon AND/OR brainout (@ brainout: I'll get back to you just as soon as I figure it out. Your asking an infant: "What do you want to eat?" How in the #!$^!*&... would I know? haha.)
. . .
Anonynomenon! OH MY GOD! I didn't want to BECOME Hebrew!
Though I REALLY thank you for the info about Hebrew (which I WILL make good use of), I've been of the opinion (for the last 35-40 years) that the ORIGINAL, continuos string ("scripta continua") of Hebrew letters, in the scripture, had NO VOWELS (vowel points). IF it was the ORIGINAL method GOD used (the meaning being in the consonants), then how could anyone ass-u-me that dividing it in the manner of the LATER added vowel points would be correct? I would think (as a non "Hebrew scholar") that the method would more likely be SOMETHING to the effect of separating the two, or three, letter root from any affixes. It's just that attempting to sound-out something that, they say ORIGINALLY had no vowels, simply doesn't register in MY brain. The adding of the vowel points for HUMAN verbal communication purposes and memorization DOES make sense though. But how would that relate to "TIME Orchestration"? Wouldn't the ORIGINAL text make more sense for THAT purpose? (SORRY, I'm just beginning to think this stuff through, as I write it, applying MY background. [See more in what follows.])

By the way . . .
Do either of you have an opinion on what the ORIGINAL purpose of the Hebrew "finals" was? I've always thought that they MIGHT have been intended to separate sentences (complete thoughts), or perhaps clauses, because of those "scripta continua" aspects. (I was never good at grammer, so please try to keep any answer SIMPLE). MY studies have always been in individual words and the semantics of WESTERN languages. (Where as Hebrew is an "Oriental" language, it's much harder for me.) I could say much more on this, but I know the internet "leaks", so I'll just stop it here.
[. . . Am I just wasting your time?]

_________________
Powered by KJV


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 09 May 2016, 23:35 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 10 Aug 2015, 16:03
Posts: 1831
Okay, Ron -- well it's true that the original mss has no vowel points. The Massoretes added them. So the meter is governed by the consonants. One consonant one vowel (latter not being written), so the next consonant begins a new syllable. HOWEVER, some consonants form a single sound, much as our sh and ay (aleph yod in Hebrew, both considered consonants). But first you parse ASSuming no concatenations like that, and the resultant pattern will make it clear where you ASSume running the consonants together as one syllable instead of two.

See my Psalm 90 channel for examples live on screen and downloadable docs.

Of course, if you're not already familiar with Hebrew/Greek letters, you'll have a tough time of this. Maybe just look at the math. Underlying math primer videos: click here. Then when going through Psalm 90, just ignore the Hebrew, use only the numbers, and a translation. Gradually, then, you can learn to read the letters and count the syllables, yourself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8xYBlaUOxo

Same for the Greek.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9H65avbels


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 10 May 2016, 03:28 
User avatar

Joined: 25 Aug 2015, 22:51
Posts: 880
@ Brainout

I'm reparsing Matt 24-25 into smaller clauses. I noticed in Matt 24:29, you counted ἥλιος as 3 syllables rather than two. Did you have a specific reason for that, or did you over look it.

I can kinda see why you did the same for δυνάμεως in Matt 24:30. Was that to accentuate the middle vowel?

EDIT!

Take a look at syllables 470-499. Something with the count is off there.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 10 May 2016, 04:14 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 10 Aug 2015, 16:03
Posts: 1831
Helios is a long-attested pronunciation. Similar to heli in Hebrew, which means suffering, so I don't see concatenation there. But have at it, if you think it should be lower.

as for dunamis becomeing dunamews, it's to prevent confusion.

As for what might be wrong between 470-499, I need more detail as to what you think might be wrong.


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 10 May 2016, 04:23 
User avatar

Joined: 25 Aug 2015, 22:51
Posts: 880
15a. Ὅταν οὖν ἴδητε τὸ βδέλυγμα τῆς ἐρημώσεως
I get 15 syllables here, but I can see a possiblility for 16 or even 18. How are you counting Bdelugma? 3 or 4?

15b. τὸ ῥηθὲν διὰ Δανιὴλ τοῦ προφήτου ἑστὸς ἐν τόπῳ ἁγίῳ,

Here you have 20 syllables, but I get 18. It can be stretched to 19 syllable if you count Dan-i-eil, but I just read it Dan-yeil.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


Last edited by Anonynomenon on 10 May 2016, 05:10, edited 1 time in total.

Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 10 May 2016, 04:30 
User avatar

Joined: 25 Aug 2015, 22:51
Posts: 880
Nevermind, my apologies, I see exactly what I did wrong.

Anyways, how are you counting βδέλυγμα and ἐρημώσεως???

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 10 May 2016, 05:09 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 10 Aug 2015, 16:03
Posts: 1831
Bdelugma=3 syll. It's counted correctly at 15, but I forgot to adjust the '16' showing there, so 16 is a typo. The totals reflect 15.


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 10 May 2016, 05:11 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 10 Aug 2015, 16:03
Posts: 1831
I'm using Dan-i-el because the Hebrew would separate them: Dan=Judge, i=My, el=God, so God is My Judge.


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 10 May 2016, 05:20 
User avatar

Joined: 25 Aug 2015, 22:51
Posts: 880
K. thanks.

I've got another.

Matt 24:29 καὶ οἱ ἀστέρες πεσοῦνται ἀπὸ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ,
You have 15 syll, I count 13, maybe 14.

That might effect your Varro's problem.

Edit:

Fixing verse 29 places 1050 syllables between the first 2 Amein lego humin statements. It is both divisible by 7 and 3.

First Amein is of course syll 63, second is syll 1113. So far, your elisions are working very well.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


Last edited by Anonynomenon on 10 May 2016, 05:35, edited 1 time in total.

Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 10 May 2016, 05:35 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 10 Aug 2015, 16:03
Posts: 1831
Yep, that's a mistake. Should be 13 syllables. I don't have time to fix it now. Do you?

Verse 31 has an extra twn which is in 2 Vaticanus and Tregelles (who was looking at Vaticanus, his memory of it is his version). So that leaves one more to find, before 1036.


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 10 May 2016, 05:40 
User avatar

Joined: 25 Aug 2015, 22:51
Posts: 880
Yeah, I'll fix it and hopefully have it posted sometime tomorrow. Im going through the entire thing one clause at a time. It looks there is a meter within a meter, and maybe even two. Im just getting the primary meter sorted out for now.

I edited my comment above too. Be sure to look at it.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 10 May 2016, 05:58 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 10 Aug 2015, 16:03
Posts: 1831
Yeah, I'm sure there is a meter within a meter. Several. Notably, you were able to seven the TEXT topics. What I hope we find, is the meter which still allows that to happen.


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 10 May 2016, 06:02 
User avatar

Joined: 25 Aug 2015, 22:51
Posts: 880
Have you seen or documented any meters within meters before?

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 10 May 2016, 06:24 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 10 Aug 2015, 16:03
Posts: 1831
Yeah, I've seen them often, most notably in Psalm 90, quick handwritten sheet here.

The other blindingly-obvious one is Isaiah 53, here. Note how the TEXT is balanced to the METER so it's real obvious which TEXT matches which METER as bookends each time.

Wow, turns out it was easier to fix than I thought: pisteusete should be five syllables each time, I didn't treat as dipthong (obviously, for pistis becomes pistews), but I didn't count properly in Matt 24:24 and 26. So I corrected the count, and now by the time you get to the corrected 13 in Matt24:29, it's okay again, still 901.

The sevening changed to 863-905 AD. Click here for a chronology, but it's not what I'm looking for.

Click here for a list of monasteries established in 9th century. I think that's what's stressed. There were a lot of Viking raids on them, too. So the combo of actually being able to SEE a Bible plus the raids pressure should have done much to aid spiritual growth. It's all pre-Cluny (which started in 910).

Uploaded the corrections on pages 1 and 2 as http://www.brainout.net/Matt24-25ParsedR4.doc (readable/editable if you have Bibleworks fonts) and http://www.brainout.net/Matt24-25ParsedR4.pdf (if you don't).


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 10 May 2016, 18:53 
User avatar

Joined: 25 Aug 2015, 22:51
Posts: 880
Ok, well those fixes put the Amein lego humin at syllable 1116, which eliminates the need to include hoti. I think that's a good thing. So 1110-57=1053 or 351x3. :thumbup:

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 10 May 2016, 19:02 
User avatar

Joined: 25 Aug 2015, 22:51
Posts: 880
I'm going to update this comment with more variants as I find them. Maybe you should wait till I'm don't so your not constantly scrambling to fix the meter. Its up to you.

Matt 24:38 καὶ πίνοντες, γαμοῦντες καὶ γαμίζοντες,
I count 12 syll. You have 13.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 10 May 2016, 20:42 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 10 Aug 2015, 16:03
Posts: 1831
Well, it is 13. Gamew, like pisteuw, has the 'e' in the stem, so gam-o-untes is how it should be pronounced.

But feel free to do what you think best. I'm just disclosing why 13. It's doctrinally poetic, too, since one of the memes is Church as 13th 'tribe'.


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 10 May 2016, 21:57 
User avatar

Joined: 25 Aug 2015, 22:51
Posts: 880
OMG!!!!
I FINALLY, FINALLY, FINALLY, got Matt 24 to end in 1673 WITH your two syllable kuryos', AND while balancing the Anaphora without including hoti.

So I'm pretty confident that the rest of Matt 25 is correct given that there are no other mistakes. I still need to audit the rest, but I REALLY need a break.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 10 May 2016, 22:11 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 10 Aug 2015, 16:03
Posts: 1831
Good, get some rest! Gotta tell ya, I'm bushed!

PS: from the middle of the first legw in amen legw humin to the middle of the second legw in the second occurrence, is 1050. That's what I meant by the Varro adjustment, since Christ isn't SPEAKING until BORN, Heb 10:5.


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 11 May 2016, 03:54 
User avatar

Joined: 25 Aug 2015, 22:51
Posts: 880
Ok, I got to the amein lego humin in Matt 25:12, and its not working. I'm thinking that maybe hoti is part of the last two. Do you think the two hoti's (total 4 syllables) could be there to because of Varro's error?

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 11 May 2016, 06:36 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 10 Aug 2015, 16:03
Posts: 1831
Yeah, it's not working for me either. But it sevens and threes, see row 12 of http://www.brainout.net/AmenAnaphora.xls .

So maybe only needed adjustment for Varro once.

Or maybe the meter is still wrong. Drives me nuts.


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 11 May 2016, 07:01 
User avatar

Joined: 25 Aug 2015, 22:51
Posts: 880
I don't think the meter is wrong. I mean, there are two duplicate statements of amein lego humin hoti, whereas the rest of them don't use hoti.

Is hoti even grammatically necessary?

I kinda feel like it is meant to stand out for a reason.



Ill try to work on it some more tomorrow. If I can get all the hidden meters to work, then maybe we'll know if the parsing is correct.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 11 May 2016, 07:05 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 10 Aug 2015, 16:03
Posts: 1831
Yeah, I think hoti's supposed to stand out, also. What is uncertain: should it go on the next line, or be at the end? That's why I did the AmenAnaphora.xls (link above), to see if I could spot a metering. Seems there are some.

You remember how it's used grammatically, right? Sometimes it's SILENT, like we use quote marks, or like a bullet to introduce a point. Sometimes it's to be translated. I'm not sure which, in those verses. But it seems definitely to be counted.


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 15 May 2016, 12:00 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 10 Aug 2015, 16:03
Posts: 1831
Hey, I think I found an error in Matt 25:45, my error. Looks like epoiesete is only four syllables. In Matt 25:44, diekonesamen should be 6 syllables. That, in keeping with the Hebraisms excepting dia, which in other parts of Matthew he doesn't elide out fully, but abbreviates with di (so considers dia=di+a).

If I do that, then 3149 becomes 3150, as expected, but the total at 3220 doesn't change. Hope this info helps you.

I'm still bugged by the 3 or 4 overs and unders at what should be the 490+70+490 benchmarks after 1540, but am working on it.


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 15 May 2016, 19:17 
User avatar

Joined: 25 Aug 2015, 22:51
Posts: 880
Thanks, I was going to try and finish up matt 25 today.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 15 May 2016, 22:06 
User avatar

Joined: 25 Aug 2015, 22:51
Posts: 880
Im only counting 25 syllables in Matt 25:22a. You have 26.

Edit

But, in Matt 25:24c, I count 21 syllables, where you have 20, so that fixes the count. I think you miscounted διεσκόρπισας.

EDIT

Matt 25:30b must match Matt 24:49b, so 14 syllables there.

Is there a reason why you didn't elide δὲ ἔλθῃ in Matt 25:31??

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 16 May 2016, 01:17 
User avatar

Joined: 25 Aug 2015, 22:51
Posts: 880
K, I think I resolved the problems. In order for the anaphora to balance in the last three sections of matt 25, αἰώνιον must be counted as 4 syllables. That's the only way I could find without screwing up the total. Gonna take a short break, then I'll be finishing up.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 16 May 2016, 06:36 
User avatar

Joined: 25 Aug 2015, 22:51
Posts: 880
Ok. I got the meter to balance with the Anaphora, without changing the total. I was also able to find much more subsevening, and two other meters-within-meters or as I call them crypto-meters.

I'll post this as a word doc and pdf so you can alter it if you want.


Attachments:
File comment: Matt 24-25 with crypto-meters pdf
Matthew 24 Reparsed by clause III.pdf [158.8 KiB]
Downloaded 59 times
File comment: Matt 24-25 with crypto-meters
Matthew 24 Reparsed by clause III.docx [53.98 KiB]
Downloaded 61 times

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 16 May 2016, 06:40 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 10 Aug 2015, 16:03
Posts: 1831
Yeah, aiwnion four. But Matt 25:22a is 26 syllables, am sticking to that. Duo as two syll each. I know we differ on that.

Re Matt 25:24 and 26, the elisions stand or fall together. I can't say oupw ouk without running them together, hence elision. Also, the double consonant in dieskorpisas makes the ie run together no matter how you try to say 'i-a'.

I don't understand how you can get Matt 24:49b (which is what phrase?) to be 14 syllables, and why you think it must be the same as Matt 25:30.

Matt 25:31's de elthe is combined (krasis). should say 27 syllables..

But you do it your way. That's the beauty of this. Okay, downloaded the pdf. I see you now show 3227, so you found 7 more syllables than I used. That will be interesting, as I was thinking over the weekend, whether I could reparse the clauses and hit the right benchmarks with more syllables, but couldn't see where to justify increasing them.

But I won't be able to do much for the next week or two, maybe.


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 16 May 2016, 07:11 
User avatar

Joined: 25 Aug 2015, 22:51
Posts: 880
Quote:
I don't understand how you can get Matt 24:49b (which is what phrase?) to be 14 syllables, and why you think it must be the same as Matt 25:30.


Sorry, I meant Matt 24:51 and Matt 25:30. They both say ἐκεῖ ἔσται ὁ κλαυθμὸς καὶ ὁ βρυγμὸς τῶν ὀδόντων, but you have 14 syllables in Matt 24:51, and 15 syllables in Matt 25:30.

I changed the δύο's. Im not sure I agree with dieskorpisas, but we can worry about that later.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 16 May 2016, 07:56 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 10 Aug 2015, 16:03
Posts: 1831
I got 'em both at 14, maybe you have the wrong doc? http://www.brainout.net/Matt24-25ParsedR4.pdf or use .doc if you have Bibleworks fonts.

Peri dieskorpisas, parse it as you see fit. I'm not comfortable with my results, cuz seems to me they should benchmark on both timelines. But how to fix, I'm not sure.

In other words, I'm looking for the clauses to benchmark at 490, 560, 1050, 1540, 1610, 2100, 2590, 2660, 3150 plus 63 plus x. They're not. And then the second (pre-Church) benchmarks should each be 63 higher, ending at the same total. But they don't. Maybe that expectation is wrong, but it seems so close that the more likely problem is, I misparsed syllables.


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 16 May 2016, 08:11 
User avatar

Joined: 25 Aug 2015, 22:51
Posts: 880
I might have an older doc. Anyways, I'll see what I can do with those benchmarks, but so far, most of your elisions work pretty well. I just made a few changes. I got ALOT of sub-sevening in the crypto-meters. Im not sure how significant that might be, but I think its an indicator that the parsing is pretty close.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 16 May 2016, 09:36 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 10 Aug 2015, 16:03
Posts: 1831
Crypto-meters? Sorry, my brain is out, I don't know what that means.


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 16 May 2016, 14:44 
User avatar

Joined: 25 Aug 2015, 22:51
Posts: 880
Meters within the meter. Its shorter to say crypto-meter and sounds way cooler.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 16 May 2016, 16:51 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 10 Aug 2015, 16:03
Posts: 1831
Oh, okay


Report this post
Top
   
PostPosted: 18 May 2016, 07:55 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 10 Aug 2015, 16:03
Posts: 1831
Okay, your 3227 total fits with Luke's use of the 77 at the end. Think some of what you disagreed with, you're right. I found the extra 7 syllables so that all but the 1607 tally to 1050, 490, 560 benchmarks. The 1607 looks deliberate, as it's a nexus between the pre-Church and post-Church timelines (with play on Varro, so 1607 SEVEN balances to 1110, balances to 1113 sevening backwards to 63 and 1673, plus the 3 haha shortfall vs. 1610 is obvious).

But can't upload the changes for some days...


Report this post
Top
   
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 566 posts ]  Go to page Previous 15 6 7 8 912 Next

All times are UTC


You can post new topics in this forum
You can reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited