FrankForum (Frankness IS Forum)

Well, maybe they ASSumed I was trying to trash Cruz. I'm not. I think he's got the potential to be a great President, but not yet. He's too stuck on his dad's Dominionism, which I was trying to explain.

As to the meter and its SUBTLE tie to Istanbul due to its Constantinian history, well.. this is news to them, and for the moment they are reacting. Once they see this thread and your comments, plus some others of mine, they will maybe realize their positions need CORRECTION, which can actually help them.

I guess I really shouldn't be too critical. I know how difficult it can be maintain objectivity when faced with new information that contradicts personal opinion. I still struggle with it myself.

BTW, have you seen the new trend in Europe?
Certain members of the EU want to push for a European Federal Union.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/663946 ... tes-Europe

A declaration for the movement was signed in Rome in September of 2015, but its just now reaching the public eye, just as the UK is considering withdrawal from the EU.

On top of that, Turkey is already threatening to go back on the immigrant deal if the EU doesn't expedite the accession process.

Just as USA is going through a political power struggle, it appears more so in Europe.

Do you think that ties to 'Kurie, Kurie...' in Matt 25?

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Oh, sure., it could. I no longer think the timeline is US-centric, though obviously we are part of it. Everyone's angling for a SAVIOR and picking some GOVERNMENT SOLUTION to get it. Anything but the Real LORD.

Here is a much more detailed article covering more of Europe's attempt for passive united federalist consolidation of power.
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/04 ... of-europe/

Four nations have signed a joint declaration in Rome:
1) Germany
2) Italy
3) France
4) Luxembourg

Three Nations are presently experiencing a consolidation of military forces under Germany:
1) Denmark
2) Czech Republic
3) Netherlands

So far, Britain might be leaving the EU, but might be pressured to stay.

Turkey is become much more aggressive in its entry tactics.

So far that is at least 7 nations that might become involved in forming a European Federal Union.

I want to know how the end-times droolers are missing this? This is a legit historical trend here...comparable to Justinian's Rome.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Good points!

(Yeehah, only 11 plans left, and those I can do blindfolded! God made it VERY easy, so can spend more time on the meter!)

Yeah. I'm have an idea for finding the right elisions. Im going to see if there is a consistent/predictable rhythm to the text that might make the elisions stick out. Like a musical time signature: so many beats per measure.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Okay. Would be interesting!

At my end, I think He's playing a game with the Varronic 4-year error (same as and source of our 4BC Christ Birth error). Haunts me even in my sleep. But first, to finish the stupid other docs...

Just had a thought re Rev17. The seven are those before and including, Daniel's Man of Time. So maybe:

Egypt, then Hittites, then Assyria, then Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome =7 . But the 7th is yet to come, so scratch Egypt. Notice: all but Egypt attacked or were at times in history, antagonistic to her. Egypt was only antagonistic at the Exodus. After that, it didn't attack her, though it wanted to, I'm sure.

Pretty much all combos since are on the Roman model, so the 8th is part of the 7th. You can well argue that Islam is an outgrowth too, for Koran is very much patterned on Roman Catholicism ideas re Bible, rather than on Bible itself.

For 'kings' can stand for kingdoms.

I would think that 7 specific kings would represent their kingdom. Has a particular Hittite king ever had any Beast quality?

I included Babel, since Babel's fall resulted in the division of the world into nations. That is the whole reason God called out Israel from the world for His own representation.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Why would it have to be a specific king? I know some theological interps go like that, but in the context, and elsewhere in Bible, the ROLE of a king is more in view, viz., 'kings of the earth' isn't specific.

As for Babel, it predates Israel. I'm just thinking out loud given the text, not saying your ideas are wrong and mine right.

The only thing I'm absolutely sure of, it that it's FAKE/POLITICAL CHURCH on the Roman model and maybe geographically-related to Rome too: mystery=church, seven hills=old or new Rome (maybe Istanbul, so Islam is a follow-on), and it must be related to the same polity which took down the 2nd Temple, Daniel 9:27. But 'related' can be a form of government, not necessarily a Revived Roman Empire in the classical theological sense. For all forms of government today are on the Roman model (plebe house and Senate, some head over both, separate judicial system, some loose or strict tie to religion).

I know that Babel predates Israel, but Babel's fall was the reason that God chose to represent Himself through Israel, so in that respect, it could be related.

Babel was also the First Eccumenical World Order, and Revived Rome is supposed to be the Final Eccumenical World Order.

Revelation 17:8 specifies that the Beast which John saw riding the Harlot came up out of the Abyss. In all of Revelation, the only Beast that I know of which rises from the Abyss is Apollyon. That tells me that Apollyon is the Beast which, "was, and is not, and is about to come out of the abyss and go to destruction". So in my opinion base on what Revelation states, the king of the eighth head is a specific king identified as Apollyon. Therefore it would make sense that each of the other heads have to be specific kings too.

So this is what I think might be the case.

1)Babel: Nimrod (Micah 5 Land of Nimrod)
2)Assyria: Sennacherib (Micah 5:5, Nahum 1, Zeph 2)
3)Babylon: Nebuchadnezzar (Jer 50, Isa 47)
4)Medo-Persia: Ahasuerus (Esther; had he listened to Haman he would have been a Beast)
5)Seleucid Empire: Antiochus Epiphanes (Daniel 11)
6)Rome: Domitian (Rev 17:10 "one is")

Rapture Happens Eventually
7)Interim Union of Europe and Turkey that will become Rome???
8)Revived Rome (both Legs): Apollyon (Rev 17:8)


From my observations, it seems that there will both be a Revived King and a Revived Kingdom.

The Revived Kingdom is Rome, which is the Kingdom of the 6th Head.

The Revived King, I believe could be Nimrod. That will require a lot of explanation, much of which will deviate from the Colonel's interpretations.

Regardless of how wrong I might be, I think there are a few key points to pin down.

1) The 6th Head can not be Greek since Rev 17:10 makes it clear that the 6th Head existed in John's day.

2) Therefore, the 7th Head must be a future king/kingdom that has a very short reign during the Tribulation (all future prophecy must occur after the Rapture, never before).

Can you offer an alternate explanation for those two points?

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Well, as I said, it depends on how you want to read the 8. I could also claim that the sixth is Domitian, and count back to Caligula (Domitian='now is', then Titus, Vespasian, Nero, Claudius, Caligula). In which case, none of the past empires are in view.

I'm not sure how the 'kings' should be counted. I'm only sure that the end one, is POLITICAL FAKE CHURCH on the Roman model (which all Protties and RCC, Greek Odox etc all are).

Well if the Beast has 7 Heads (either 7 Roman emperors or 7 historical empires), the the Harlot would be riding all 7 of them, not just the 8th.

So the Harlot is definitely a religio-political system, but more of a parasitic one that attempts to integrate itself with Biblical faith.

So if the Heads are Roman Emporers, then how did the Harlot control them.

If the Heads are 7 Historical kingdoms, then the Harlot is some adoption of the original Baal Cult.

Islam is an adoption of Baal worship that is designed to integrate with apostate Christianity and Judaism.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

No, the text only says she's riding the last one, but it's the PRODUCT of the prior, so to call them past kings (which the text does) or empires (since kings rule polities) is still valid.

And all those past kings or empires, sponsored state religion. Scarlet/purple = religion/political rule. The 'harlot' always means religion in Bible, since at first the religions were orgiastic.

So then the harlot comes to exist, first under the yet-to-come versus 88/9AD, Domitian: Constantine. Remains a trend ever after. Which, since Constantinople is now Istanbul, might include Islam, Chrislam, etc.

The Harlot rides only one Beast which has 7 Heads. So the Harlot would have control over ALL the Heads, not just one.

So we need to define the Scarlet Beast with 7 Heads.



Looks like Satan is the Beast with 7 Heads. It is his system of government which is kept under control by Religion.

That doesn't rule out the 7 Roman Emperor theory, but we have to show how the Harlot controlled all of them.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Yes, but any polity even today, is the product of ones past.

Yes, that is true.

Anyways, now I'm just confused. The Harlot rides a Beast with 7 Heads, so that implies that the religion controls all 7 Heads. Yet, the Scarlet Beast, "was, but is not, but will rise from the Abyss" (Rev 17:8), so could the 6th Head be the one that "is", when the entire Beast "is not"(Rev 17:10).

So maybe the Harlot only controls the 8th Head as you said, but I don't how to reconcile the above statement.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Well, let's think that over:

If you take the 'empires' position for the past kings, then in each case -- religion CONTROLLED them, or they USED religion to gain/consolidate/keep control. So no contradiction.

If you take the 'kings' position, whether only SPQR kings or others in the past, it's still the same no-contradiction.

Or if you just leave out the past, the future polity will use religion to gain/consolidate/keep political control, that's why they hate the harlot.

Does this reply help?

Yeah.

I can see how religion has influenced polity throughout history. I just need to re-think the 7-kings/kingdoms vs the 7 Roman Emperors interpretations. I don't really know where to start right now.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Yeah, me neither. I was just asking God about that, and the answer 'BOTH' hit me.
But that might have been my dinner, not Him.

How about this for a starting point?

Rev 12:3 calls Satan the 7-Headed Beast,but in Rev 13:1 is what we understand the 7-Headed Beast to be the Anti-Christ. So why two 7-Headed Beasts? Is it a father-son relationship? Like Anti-Trinity (which it prevalent in the ancient cults)?

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Well, that just means Satan is behind the Rev17 beast. You could well argue (and Bible does) that ALL the kingdoms/empires are backed by Satan. Remember 3rd Temptation in Matt4?

ok, but what does it mean that the Beast rises from the Abyss. That is why I tie it to Apollyon, but could it mean something else?

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Well, the TAKEOVER might begin at mid-Trib.

But that would imply that Apollyon is the Anti-Christ, and that his "beer hall putsch" is the Abomination of Desolation. Right?

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Well, I think Apollyon is in Tartarus, heading up the demons there. Not, Satan. So mebbe (just guessing, now) Satan at Trib start begins to influence/create the 'beast', but hampered by the Two Witnesses, he does the Rev 9 thing at start of 3rd year; it's successful, and at mid-point Apollyon kills the Two Witnesses and THEN full takeover begins. Hence statue flown in, etc.

I used to hold a similar opinion, but compare Rev 9:11 with Rev 17:



What if the 7th Head is in place for the first 3.5 years of the Trib, then Apollyon takes the tourch from the 7th Head at Mid-Trib, and becomes the 8th.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Yeah, that's what I was trying to say. I think it's a causal connection. At Trib start, Satan first gets the world behind him, then Rev9 demands key to abussos (which may or may not include Tartarus, but I think it prolly does, since the Gen 6 fallen angels are there); then by Rev12 revolts in heaven cuz he thinks he won, and God's lying. Ergo last half.

Ok, so if that is the case, then how is Apollyon the Beast that "was and is not"?



That is where things get really confusing for me, because it implies:

1) that the 7 Heads are 7 historical kings.

2) that Apollyon was one of those ancient king.

If those two implications are wrong, then Abyss does not carry the same meaning between Rev 9 and Rev 17.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Text never says APOLLYON is the Beast. Satan is the dragon, and is behind politics. 'Beast' means political entity, never a person. Satan rules the fallen angels, and Apollyon is one of them.

The trouble is whether Apollyon is a separate person, which I think he is, given he comes up OUT of abussos, in Rev 9:11. But even that might just mean Satan heads them, not himself coming up out of Abyss. For one of Satan's nicknames is Destroyer, Apollo, from apolumi.

Ok, so the political power system rises from the abyss, which is headed by Apollyon (who could be Satan).

Does that mean that Apollyon is what we call the Anti-Christ? Also remember that the False Prophet is also called a Beast, so it seems that Beast can mean both individual and collective.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Well, wait until you get to Rev9-13 in the tapes.

KoW=Daniel KoN. Then Daniel 11:35ff is the False Prophet (head of Israel at that point). That's why there can BE a statue in mid-Trib. Both are humans. It's key to the Conflict that HUMANS want the stuff Satan panders. So he's not enforcing over. He's influencing.

So power behind them, is satanic. Whether Satan directly indwelling KoN, maybe Apollyon (if separate) indwells False Prophet, maybe only influence. 2Thess 2 ties here. Thieme says the KoN will be Gentile, and indwelt. I don't remember where he gets the 'indwelt' conclusion.

K. Thanks, I'll take a closer look at Dan 11.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Brainout,

Is it possible that the Great Trib (aka Jacob's Trouble) didn't come from Jacob at all. After all, it is part of the time that the Gentiles trample Jerusalem.

Didn't the Flood happen 1655.5 years YoW?

1655.5+3.5=1659

1050+490+119=1659.

What if the Great Tribulation is supposed to be Antediluvian time? The 119 years could be related to the 120 years in Gen 6, and Jesus likened His return to the days of Noah.

The reason I thought of that is because Apollyon and his angels are the only thing to rise from the Abyss, yet so does the "Beast". So is the "Beast" really the Antediluvian political system?

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

That's a stretch. Moses wrote Genesis per his meter, start of 1051st year after Flood began. So there's 'some' 1050 measure to follow, but so far I can't find it. The 119 doesn't work for anything in the past that I know of, and why would Abyss be tied to that?

Well, like I said, Apollyon and his angels rise from the Abyss, as does the Beast/political system...that is the same Beast, 'that was, is not, but will rise from the Abyss.'

If the angels in the Abyss were put there because of their Gen 6:4 activities. Then what if they were the Beast/political system that took control of the Antediluvian world?



How else are we to interpret the Rev 17:8 & 11? What other pre-existing kingdom went into the Abyss only to Rise again???

I was going to leave the subject alone, but I asked God about it, and it the idea popped into my head as I was trying to fall asleep. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think it merits a closer look, at least.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

But we don't know why Abussos angels are there. Tartarus is for the Gen 6 group.

Ok, so what if "abyss" is being used two different ways, both literally (as in the case of Apollyon and crew) and symbolically for Rome.

Since Rome died as a kingdom, would that be like saying 'Rome went into the Abyss'?
Similar to Isaiah 14:9

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Sheol is for people, not kingdoms. A kingdom is just a collection of buildings, rules, goods.

Useful timeline of WWI, just in case we're in for a repetition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_ ... War_I#1914

An attempted coup going on in Turkey right now. There's a lot of conflicting info floating around. This has been a very active month.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

I'm under the impression that Erdogan staged this whole thing for his own political glory. Now he is purging his government, and he has the "justfication" for the strick "anti-terror" laws that have been standing between Turkey and EU accession. I've never seen such a sorry attempt at a coup before.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Yeah, I'm thinking he didn't actually stage it but knew it was going to happen and 'prepared' as an excuse for a crackdown. Too easily put down, not to think as you posited or similarly.

OMG. Why is Europe still committed to this Turkish deal? After the post-coup crackdown and Erdogan's incessant threats, why are they so eager to let a facist nation into their Union. Its insanity.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... ement-work

Erdogan has set an ultimatum: Accession by October or deal is off. The EU needs to tell Erdogan to go to hell, and handle the immigrants themselves.

There must be something more to this than the immigration deal. It just doesnt make sense.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Well, now that Russia is using Iran to fly to Syria rather than making some arrangement with Turkiye, that might explain something of the ultimatum. But we'll see. I just learned of thre Russian flying within the last 24 hours.