FrankForum (Frankness IS Forum)

Now these are likely key points to the puzzle! Reddened. When you get to that section in Rev you'll hear Thieme talk about it, though he brings up the point sooner. There and earlier, he speculates that what we are calling aborted kings (he calls 'loser believers') will be "sitting on the sidelines". Funny, I never made the connection to Pisgah until you posted it here. Yeah. That makes sense.

We need more proof, but this parallel sounds like one of our smoking guns?

Ok. Pay close attention to these verses: Key word, "unbelieving", they go to Lake of Fire.
Notice that you must was your robes (soul) to enter New Jerusalem and have access to the Tree of Life.

Also notice that verse 15 does not say the sorcerers, etc are "unbelieving", nor does it say they are in Lake of Fire. It simply says they are OUTSIDE
So, if your soul isn't washed in Christ (Mind of Christ), you don't get Fruit of Life and you don't enter New Jerusalem.

What do you guys think? Is this smoking gun material?

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Could be. How far have you gotten in the Rev tapes? What chapter and verse?

Just starting chapter 2:1. Been focusing on James 4 to build my tolerance with patients at work.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Okay, well let's give this topic a rest until you've heard Thieme cover those points, as he's just getting into them, with 2:1.

Couldn't sleep, so came back here, rethinking the whole thread. Keying off now your post below, highlighted words, and the small text is cross-ref or comment.
Now, 'wash' with v.16 'churches' shows a second, post-salv meaning: JSC, 1 Cor 3 and Rev 4:1, rewards for growing up, not for being saved. For everyone has the right ROBES, but not all are clean (washed by the Word). Then you have v.17, the availability of it (which of course Frank Herbert mangled in order to show the evil of religion in his Dune sextilogy). Verses 18-19 clearly apply to believers. Verse 20's mistranslated 'quickly' means 'next, and suddenly, without prior warning' so applies to Church.

So there's a clear parallel with Outside which is not the Lake of Fire. No mention of darkness. But I've not gone through my notes or any commentaries. It's my procedure to look at the text as if never reading it, and run with an idea, see how well it works. Then go back and correct. Point is, the highlights sorta affirm what you and hupostasis said above, which is repasted below.

@Brainout

Yeah, I'm still trying to hear Thieme out, but progress is slow. I'm really torn between whether or not access to New Jerusalem and Tree of Life is meritorious or non-meritorious.

It all depends on what it means to "overcome" as repeated in the 7 letters. If each letter uses it in the same context, then to "overcome" is Juridical Salvation, not soul salvation.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Yeah, that's why your SEQUENTIAL listening will be important. The thread won't vanish. Rev 2-3 set the pattern, and nikaw is the keyword starting there. So just hang on.

I'm not trying to hurry the thread. Just needed to do something when I woke up too early.

Understood. I just tend to fixate on things that I can't figure out. That's why I opened the music thread, to transfer my focus until I'm ready to come back here. Now I'm fixated on fundamental music theory. Went as far as inventing my own equidistant scale and removing the frets from my guitar.

Feel free to disregard my obsessive ramblings.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Earlier in this thread, I mentioned a parallel between the Outer Darkness and Mount Pisgah, were Moses had to view the Land from afar. Just recently, I revisited some questions that I had about Hebrews 6:

I always thought Hebrews 6:5 (especially the highlighted portion) was for non-believers only, specifically because I did not previously know that the Outer Darkness was a place for failed believers only. But now with this new knowledge, the entire NT is starting to make so much more sense in a way that I did not expect.

Moses was prohibited from entering the Land SPECIFICALLY because he struck the rock rather than speaking to it (as described in Deut 32:51-52). By striking the rock twice, Moses symbolically crucified Christ a second time (Heb 6:6), therefore Moses was not allowed into the Land that would become the Kingdom of Israel.

Now, Moses was present at the Transfiguration of Christ, so I don't think Moses' prohibition from entering the Land was anything more than a symbol for the spiritual life (in other words, I think Moses will be in the Millennial Kingdom) , but this some serious stuff.

From what I gather from Hebrews 6, any believer who cracks the Maturity Barrier, and then falls way from the Word will cause IRREPARIABLE DAMAGE to his/her relationship with God, and therefore a permanent loss of eternal reward WITH NO SECOND CHANCE.

So maybe the story of the Prodigal son only applies to immature believers (who have not cracked the Maturity Barrier) who fall away and come back.

If someone has a different understanding of this, please share it, because this is all still kind of shocking to me.

BTW, this isn't all that I've found, there is much more, which I hope to post tomorrow.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Yeah, good point on the parallel to 2nd Meribah. I didn't think about that.

Impossible to renew, though, could mean that nothing WE do can help. Not sure it's a consignment to outer darkness before death. Serious enough, though, what with how the last three stages of reversionism go.

When Thieme was teaching that, I seem to recall him saying that 'impossible' meant 'so long as they don't use 1John1:9', which of course would be true. I'd have to look it up in my notes.

Yeah, that's what I'm trying to figure out too. If we parallel the Lake of Fire with the Outer Darkness, maybe it will clear it up. People will remain in the Lake of Fire because the CHOOSE not to believe, so maybe reversionistic believer are impossible to renew because he REFUSE to use 1 John 1:9.

There is a world of (in my opinion) between a Prodigal son (apostate infant) and a matured believer who went Cosmic.

An immature believer doesn't realize what he has to lose by entering the Cosmic system. He is like an immature know-it-all who wants his inheritance now so he can take off and party.

A mature believer has tasted the things to come and turns it down for the Cosmic system.

Think about the Israelites who rejected Caleb and Joshua's minority report. Out of fear, they wanted to go back to the slavery in Egypt. Then the next day, they decided to fight the giants in the Land, and were slaughtered. They made the same mistake Moses made at Meribah II, and were therefore prohibited from taking the Land.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

I've been reviewing some verses with the Outer Darkness in mind, and I think I may have found something.
The yellow highlighted text seems to be added, I'm not sure about the red text. Then:
I can't tell if Mark 9 and Matt 10 are addressed to believers or non-believers. The word for hell here is γεέννῃ.

I'm beginning to wonder if Gehenna is the Outer Darkness.

I know for a fact that James 3 is addressed to BELIEVERS ONLY.

Im pretty sure Matt 5 is addressed to believers too.
This time Jesus talks about serving a temporary prison sentence just before talking about Gehenna. Maybe Jesus is talking about human legal procedings in vers 26, but to transition from that to Gehenna is odd to say the least.

What if the Valley of Gehenna (just outside of Jerusalem) is the Outer Darkness????? So maybe the fire of John 15:6 is very literal....Like 1,050 years literal.



I don't know. My mind is overloaded, right now. I have a lot of thinking to do.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Okay, well the yellow highlighted stuff in Mark 9 is an error called dittography, where you copy a phrase really in Bible, but in the wrong place. Question is, which of the three places is the right one, and the scholars felt that the last one was logically right.

As for the rest of what you're conjecturing, the only thing for sure is that the lapsed Christian is much farther away from Christ. I don't see how you can stretch it to claim the term Gehenna, since that is a metaphor of hell (for unbelievers), nor how you can stretch it to claim a specific period of time.

Point is, if unbelievers are separated from God then so too lapsed believers. 'Lapsed' means those who matured some then cratered, and those who never got with the spiritual life. LOW, bottom-of-totem-pole social standing, so they see Him seldom, have a childish understanding.. maybe forever.

To me, that's worse than hell. For one will have in heaven, Divine Norms and Standards.

If you look at Matt 5, it looks like Jesus is addressing believers. He's teaching them spiritual dynamics, not the gospel. So I don't see how Gehenna can be in reference to non-believers.

If you skip down to verse 22, He's acting like Gehenna is a prison sentence. So I figured since apostates have no part in the kingdom, it would last the entire Millennial age.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Okay, well in v.22, every believer in history has committed those sins at least once. So it cannot be literal, nor be hell, but some kind of comparative metaphor. And we are all guilty so would go 'there'.

So maybe He means something other than what you're claiming.

Well, I don't think Jesus is talking about single occurrences of mental attitude sins. I think He means lust complexes, guilt complexes, and hate complexes. Chain mental attitude sinning tends to occupy the time of the carnal believer and becomes an obsession. If stuck in a sin complex, there is no spiritual growth. Maybe that's where Paul got Ephesians 5:3-14.
And I'm not sure that Gehenna has any connection to hell at all either. Jeremiah 7:31 says its where the idolaters of Judah sacrificed their children as a burnt offering. So maybe Gehenna is the burning of useless works or a burning of wicked believers, since the innocent were burned there?
So now, I don't see a time period or a physical place (though I'm not ruling that out yet), but the metaphorical use of the Gehenna fire offerings to show how apostates store up wrath for themselves at the Judgment Seat (Romans 2:5).

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Okay, but wouldn't the greater sin be not using 1John1:9 and growing in Christ? The other sins are excuses we use to not do those two things, and self-righteousness would be the one sin which makes one think he's 'in' with God, 1John1:8, 10.

I guess I find the stress on individual sins to be red herrings. The resulting carnality means NOT GROWING. The sins were paid for, but the NOT GROWING remains. Christ paid for it too, as the opportunity cost of all creation (think of all the unbelievers as NEVER GROWING for that paradigm).. but you can't live close to God in eternity without enough MD in your head, it would be excruciating.

That's what I mean though. Christ is not stressing spurts of sin, but chain sin complexes that cause the believer to fall out of fellowship for extended periods of time.

If you have a selfrighteous and hate complex, then you might use 1 John 1:9 every now and then (when religious morality is violated), but if you're not taking in and applying doctrine, you'll probably go right back into your favorite sins and stay there for a long time...so long as the selfrighteous believer thinks he is being moral....classic moral degeneration.

Basically these sin complexes are designed to minimize the use of 1 John 1:9. Thieme always said mental attitude sins are the worst kind. Here is proof.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

But still the problem is not using 1John1:9 and taking in DOCTRINE. Doesn't matter WHY one does that. DOCTRINE is the only way to grow out of any sin or sin complex.

See, the emphasis is backwards. GETTING DOCTRINE, not how and what kind of sin you sin. 2Pet3:18, not haranguing about the sins themselves, and Hebrews 11:1-6, which you'll recall is in the context of Hebrews 6, how they don't grow (not how bad their self-righteousness is).

I don't disagree with what you're saying. However, just from reading Matt 5 (whole chapter) and related passages, it seems that both 1John 1:9 and sin complexes are being emphasized. Why both? Because the real emphasis is not sin or fellowship alone, but growth.
The highlighted portion confirms that this is addressed to believers (in this case Judea as client nation). The bolded portion seems to depict fellowship (1John 1:9). Shining the Light is being in fellowship and living in doctrine. To hide the Light is being out of fellowship.

The rest of the passage is talking about mental attitudes that will not only break fellowship, but cause accelerated degeneration of the soul if a sin complex is allowed to develop. Not all sins are the same. Some lead to death quicker than others (1 John 5:16-17).

This portion again emphasized 1John 1:9 to break the complex.

1John 3:15, Eph 3:5, Rev 22:15, Prov 8:36, James 3:6, Matt 18:1-9...All of these passages are addressed to believers. They all identify specific categories of sin that either prevent entry into the Kingdom and/or lead to Gehenna fire. I think all of these passages including Matt 5 are talking about sin unto death....not just physical death, but soul death (separation) which I am convinced is real.
Again, addressed to believers.


So, I think you're right, but it looks like Jesus is also talking about sin unto death and removing the things that cause stumbling (which requires 1John 1:9+Doctrine). At least that is what I see.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Okay, so what do you conclude from that about the meaning of Outer Darkness, etc.?

The Outer Darkness is a result of the Soul Dying (experiencing separation from God's thinking) as explained by Mark 8:36.

1) The believer either never grows up because he spends his time in the cosmic system. Or an advanced believer denies Christ (Hebrews 6:6 and Hebrews 10:26). This is described in Luke 8:13&14. No dying grace for these people as long as they refuse to grow, therefore they die sin unto death.

2) When these believers face the Judgment Seat, all of their works are burned away. So instead of the fire being a purifying force, it becomes to them the Gehenna Fire. The idea is, they are like sons being passed through the fire and therefore die (suffering loss) as in the Moloch offerings in the Valley of Gehenna. Its not God's doing, but the individual believer's choice. (James 3:6, Matt 5, Rom 2:5 Matt 10:28).

3) Therefore, the believer who has passed through the Gehenna fire (losing everything) may not enter the Millennial Kingdom (Matt 24:51, Matt 25:10-12&30). I don't know where they will be sent to, but it does seem that they will sit out the entire 1050 years of Christ's reign. The weeping and gnashing of teeth will probably end when the Eternal State begins.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Okay, there are a lot of Bible verses which contradict those conclusions. Rev1:5, 5:10 contradict 3), though of course the never-matured believer won't be a head.

1) Soul doesn't die, and separation isn't technically true either, as the person is in heaven. DISTANT, maybe. But separated, not like hell is.

2) Fire is not literal in 1Cor, 'as though through fire', not actual fire.

Ask God to show you other verses, these just sprang to mind while typing.

Rev 1:5--No human (believer or non-believer) can be judged for sin, because Christ was judged for us. Therefore Gehenna cannot refer to a judgment for sin, but a judgment of useless works (as a result of extended stay in the Cosmic Sys). I don't see the contradiction, because Matt 5 is not condemning sin itself, but failure to rebound from sin (shining the light Matt 5:16), aka residence in the Cosmic Sys:

• Matt 5:24 reconcile with your brother before presenting an offering.
  Matt 5:29 if your eye makes you stumble, tear it out
  Matt 5:30 if your hand makes you stumble, cut it off

Rev 5:10--Christ has made us kings and priests to reign upon the earth, but a believer cannot reign as a king or serve as a priest if they abdicate their Royal Priesthood in Christ.

1 Cor 3:15--I was thinking about this last night while trying to fall asleep. Fire is a symbol for judgment, equally so, Gehenna is used as a symbol too. Nevertheless, I still think Gehenna fire corresponds with 1 Cor 3:15.

Soul-Death--Maybe a better term would be soul-injury/destruction.
(These passages all seem to be addressed to believers.)

Our souls are created in the image of God. We have the ability to think and make decisions independent of our emotions. That is what separates us from animals. If we choose to reject doctrine and live in the Cosmic system, we enter emotional revolt. In that stage, our emotions think for us and we are no longer functioning in the image of God. Death of the soul would then be the refusal/severe inability to think bible doctrine.

Think of it as muscle atrophy or myopathy. If you do not use your muscles, they experience atrophy. The muscle is still there, but it is shrinking and becomes almost completely useless.

So when I say soul death, I mean severe soul atrophy (to a near animalistic state). Its still a human soul in the image of God, but only by a thread. I think this is a very recurrent theme in the NT. Again, the emphasis is not on sin itself, but on the consequences for not using 1John 1:9, which inevitably involves sin (developing into crippling complexes).

The further I go into RBT's Revelation series, the more I see it.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Soul atrophy, yes. Thieme even uses the term, in later years, and that makes sense. Atrophy shrinks, as you know. But again this comes from not growing, not directly from sin.

Sin is not the direct cause of soul atrophy, but it is the gateway, and it is VERY addictive. What I gather from Matt 5:16-32 is that Jesus is telling us to let our Light shine (filling of Holy Spirit), and not to let sin railroad us into a Cosmic spiral (covering the Light)...because that is the cause of soul atrophy. When you're in the Cosmic system, you're either not taking in doctrine, or worse, you're not even using 1John 1:9 at all....but it always starts with a tiny sin that grows into a monster. That's why Christ put such an emphasis on removing the things that cause you to stumble.

If Matt 5 is addressed to believers (and I think it is), then how can Gehenna be a symbol for Hell? Why else would Jesus be condemning these sins? I think He's warning us to avoid entry into the Cosmic system.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Because Gehenna is used as a symbol of Hades in other verses, that's why it's a symbol of hell, but the idea of BURNING is separate, as in 1Cor3.

Gehenna was a noxious trash dump.

As to put away what makes you stumble, you can't do that apart from learning and living on doctrine, so the emphasis is still growth, not sin.

My mind went back to the Outer Darkness. Lets say the immature go to the Outer Darkness for the entire span of the Millennium. Why would this be the case? For the protection of the immature believer.

During the Millennium, there will be sinners ruled by sinless resurrected kings. At some point, those sinners are going to reproduce, and some of those offspring will be non-believers. So what keeps the kings from sinning?

The kings will no sin nature, so its not that they cannot sin (that would violate free will), but that they will not be tempted by internal arrogance and will have sufficient doctrine to resist temptation produced by the arrogance from outside parties. Basically resurrected kings will not desire sin and will not be lured into it.

Adam and Eve did not possess sin natures when they were created, so they were not tempted to sin from within. It was Satan's smooth talk that prompted them to sin. What Eve lacked was the desire to apply doctrine and therefore it was her failure to apply doctrine that made her weak. The same goes for Adam; he chose Eve over God.

Therefore the resurrected immature believers would be in a similar position as Adam and Eve. Their souls would be too atrophied to apply the doctrine needed to keep them from resisting socio-environmental temptation. They would not have the doctrinal capacity to serve under Christ, let alone live among the sinners of the Millennium without sinning themselves.

So maybe the Outer Darkness is more of a daycare center for the immature while our Lord and His Royal Priests reign.

During the Eternal State, there will be no sin to tempt anybody (inside or out). Therefore no Outer Darkness is needed there. All sin and temptation will be in the Lake of Fire.

Just a hypothesis.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

I don't know. Depends on whether the ruling is done ONLY by resurrected believers, or not. If ONLY by resurrected believers, then the kings need entourages, some bureacracy. So either not all mature become kings, or not all believers need to be mature to be part of those lower echelons.

I'm sure some are out in space somewhere, not actually on earth. Too many. Thieme speculates sometime in 1999 or 2000 (as part of 1992 Spiritual Dynamics series) that they all come on earth, but are 'cooling their heels', watching and not ruling. But a ruling CLASS is needed, not just a king on his own. So the question is, of WHAT GROUP is the ruling CLASS?

Thats a good point. I wonder if the highest ranks will be kings, and the medium ranks will form the bureacracy?

I somewhat agree with Thieme on the cooling of heels.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

I first tried guessing the total based on some of the Colonel's ad hoc ruminations during 1992 SD, here: http://www.brainout.net/LvS4b.htm#Balancing

Not sure how good it is. Am sure what I then remembered of what Thieme said, is included.

It boils down to whether you have a bunch of Daniels at the top, in which case you don't need many, with a whole lot of underlings who don't have to have matured, like ancient agricultural societies vs. today's modern overloaded system.

Somehow I think the isagogics would mean the older method is better.

It's never the 'type' of sin as that starts to unravel the doctrine of God doing the work. If YOU had to focus on the type of sin that that's something YOU'RE doing; and this is a constant problem that works salvationists do "you have to stop sinning XYZ", which is emphasizing that you need to stop that specific sin, while they obliviously do other sins but are too stupid to comprehend it and realize it's impossible to know all sins hence 1 John 1:9-- and even if you could learn all sin types that would hinder learning more important concepts). Also this removes the distinguishing on the 'worst' sin which is never doing metanoia (mind change), which is also linked to the unforgivable sin. For... if you never change your mind, you can't get anywhere.

Therefore it's always God doing the work, and the believer never locking their thinking to bypass mindchange.
We'd have to figure out why the 'daycare' would have wailing and gnashing of teeth. I can't think of any reasons so I'm going to say it's not a daycare (or nightcare in this case).

I don't think the issue is sin here, it's maturity. God can't force people how to think, we'd just have different bodies. So it's still wholly possible for someone to have a sucky mental attitude post bema.

~~ and that's what I always struggle with. God has to honour volition, but volition has to honour choice. So if choice is ultimately being honoured, that means you [could still] potentially do things you shouldn't do. The best solution for this that I have is you won't via being an 'invalid action'. For instance, there's things you *wouldn't do* (i.e. murder your best friend) while being on planet earth, so likewise there's things you *wouldn't do* in new jerusalem / EVEN THOUGH you 'could'. The 'could' always has to be active, even if that means there are no temptations.

...Which unfortnuately brings up the wormhole of what happens if someone DOES sin in New Jerusalem? My guess is that Christ's death would automatically pay for it. But then does that affect the ressurection body, does something happen on repeat in a cycle? The person couldn't go to hell else that means salvation isn't permanent. But this also renders the system of GETTING a resurrection body superfluous. Unless this is only necessary while the angelic conflict is 'on'.
(although the easiest way on figuring that bit out is going back to the salvation package offered to the demons), I don't think all of that is necessarily needed to figure out outer darkness, so I'm holding out on going further on that tangent.

---
Going back to outer darkness, what if:

Outer Darkness + wailing / teeth gnashing
(pre-eternal)

No more sorrow / tears
(eternal)

If God mixed the two together, that would be balancing your worst nightmare and your best dream.

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One key mentioned earlier on this page was Moses not being let into the promised land. Mentally, that's fairly akin to someone's personal 'outer darkness'. But applying Romans 8:28 and it can be reversed. If outer darkness is a subsection in New Jerusalem for aborted kings, then they should still surely have Romans 8:28. But the difference here is that Moses actually *used* Romans 8:28.

Also as mentioned earlier before, you will also notice that it doesn't necessarily imply that the city itself is 'new jerusalem'. You could have a large expanse of space OUTSIDE the kingdom. So the whole landmass could be what 'New Jerusalem' actually is.

And the gates never close: Which I still think means that unbelievers can pop out of the lake of fire and come in if they ever mind change.

@Hupostasis

Why weeping and gnashing in the Outer Darkeness? For the simple reason that they have been excluded from the kingdom.

The issue is maturity, as it takes maturity to maintain a high mental attitude, but the fact remains that there are mental attitude sins. So if a resurrected aborted king is not mature enough, what is to stop him/he from folding under temptation??? The best thing would be to isolate that individual from temptation until the Eternal State.

I don't think there is an Outer Darkness in the Eternal State. There would be no need.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

What I was getting at is that a purgatory-like environment isn't like a daycare at all :p
The problem I can see with that theory is that... not everyone who doesn't mature will necessarily be like that (which is why Christ outlined the different types of believers). A type 2 believer may very well suffer from "temptation", but type 3 is still going to be positive towards Christ. So if being in the kingdom relies on raw maturity, you 'll really slim it down to almost nothing-- and you cut out friends who *are* positive towards Christ, they just can't be bothered to do 1 John 1:9 or focus on the Bible for long.

Positive volition always has merit, even if someone doesn't have a lot of doctrine.

Furthermore the people in autosave will potentially not be as mature as those who have studied, and they definitely aren't going to be in outer darkness.

I just couldn't see all of type 2 and (especially) type 3 subjected to outer darkness due to limited maturity.

@ Hupostasis Ok, so more like time-out than day care.

Ok, so lets redefine maturity as spiritual progress (however small it may be). Think of 4 categories of people, where muscle tone symbolizes spiritual progress:

1) The average Joe with standard muscle development. Nothing impressive, but it is sufficient for day to day activities.

2) The construction worker who is much stronger. His muscles are more developed to suite the need of his job.

3) The profession athlete. His muscles are built up and finely tuned for maximum performance. His body is capable of working at 100% potential.

4) The couch potato. This person does nothing. Probably doesn't work, and his muscles have begun to degenerate to the point of uselessness. This is the Outer Darkness candidate.

Now, keep in mind that 80% of Protestant churches DO NOT teach or emphasize 1John 1:9, so the current pool of positive believers is probably pretty slim.

Now look at what Jesus told Nicodemus.
Seeingthe kingdom (as Moses did from Mt. Pisgah) is as simple as faith in Christ.

Enteringthe kingdom requires being born out of water (the Word of God).

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

I see where you're going with the analogy, but I think the variable should be something else (as muscles imply you do the work and not God). Spiritual maturation is a mental process and not physical: so we're all the 'couch potato' while studying. Using a physical analogy will just add confusion and satisfy a human nature that's already affixed to works.

Regarding John 3 (and based on what I said previously), all believers 'enter' the kingdom of God. This is compounded in Matthew: So to ENTER the kingdom of heaven, we simply just believe. And that's what being born of the spirit means (the 'born of water' part is actually literal to being born of the flesh and not the Word of God). To say that you have to be spiritually mature to enter contradicts this and the believer types. And it also has to ignore the fact that the spiritually immature don't INHERIT the kingdom but still ENTER it: Although... this bit is a bit tricky and it was brought up before: The key is the 'depart', it's not certain if this 'departing' is keyed for unbelievers or unbelievers and believers. If we were to assume that these people didn't do the will of the Father (believe Christ paid for their sins), then the departing is to the lake of fire. But who says it's just unbelievers? But in any case they wouldn't be 'departing' to the same places if that was the case-- and it's not explained if that would be outer darkness or simply just lack of inheritances if we wanted to look at it that deeply.

If it was outer darkness, it would still have to be 'in' the kingdom-- since all believers enter the kingdom.

Add into the mix that maybe all of Matthew is metered. It's a running anaphora, much like we found in the shorter amen legw humin, Anonynomenon.

For look: the exact phrase is used in Matt 8:12, 13:42, 13:50, 22:13, and of course 24:51 and 25:30 as we're discussing in that related thread on its meter.

Distance between end Matt 24 BEFORE the clause 'weeping and gnashing of teeth' and AFTER 25:30's end of clause, is divisible by 7 (2632-1659=973, also 2632-1673, and 2632 is divisible by 7). So are the other occurrences? Why only two, and not all of them?

Kill me now. For if Matt is wholly metered, then so are all the other books, mebbe.

Note that in the parable of the virgins, the line does not exist. Is that ellipsis since a well-known phrase by that point, or since it is omitted there but included at the end, what distinction to OUTSIDE as hupostasis states, might there be?

@hupostasis : lol little did we all know that when you brought up this thread it would lead to the Matt24-25 meter in its current form and back to this thread to help answer it!

@ Hupostasis

Well, I simply chose the muscle, because muscle atrophy parallels soul atrophy so well. I think by now, you and I know the difference between human works and God's works. If anyone reading this page doesn't understand that fundamental principle, then they probably shouldn't be reading our conversation in the first place. Anyways, Paul likens the spiritual life to running a race. You could say that implies work, but it really doesn't, because we are the craftsmanship of God.
I think you should look at Matt 7:21 in its full context. In the Parable of the Ten Virgins (Matt 25) the foolish virgins (who are believers too) say "LORD, LORD", and our Lord's response is "Amen, I do not know you".

The will of the Father begins with believing in His Son, but that is just the beginning. To complete His will, you must abide in Christ.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

@ Brainout

We know that the Outer Darkness is being EXCLUDED from the Wedding in Matt 22, and I still contend that Moses being left on Mt. Pisgah is a direct correlation to the Outer Darkness as well. Both of those emphasis EXCLUSION.

I'll have to revisit the story of Abraham, Melkizedek and Lot. I think that had a kingdom vs Outer Darkness theme too. My recollection on that is pretty vague at the moment.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

I'm always like that because I have my brain running everything in a sort of autocorrect. So even if I forget things, I'll still come to the same conclusions based on the mental database. Ergo, 'muscle' can never be likened to spiritual growth (in my mind).

Paul likens the kingship to a 'race' because of the variables (re: prizes & contestants), but it's not a 'muscle race' and Hebrews 12:1 explains that: I have read Matthew 7 in its entirety, all believers enter via believing Christ paid for sins. To say its maturity instead is not grace. What makes it different from Matthew 25 is the inclusion of 'the will of the father'.

I'm not sure if the foolish virgins are believers as well in that parable (to be honest it's one of the parables I just didn't like and never bothered to look into it deeply)-- because they didn't have any oil and had to buy some. However, oddly enough Christ brings up the Lord, Lord in Luke 6: However, there's no guarantee that ALL of the people Christ was speaking to were believers.

And of course that brings us back to Luke 13: Notice it doesn't mention outer darkness this time to those who CAN'T enter? But it does mention wailing and gnashing of teeth which is also linked to outer darkness (every single time). And the whole reason why this group of people is being 'thrust out'. However, if these were unbelievers, why were they IN the kingdom and then sent out? And of course then that trickles back down to Luke 6, Matthew 25, and Matthew 7-- implying that it's not unbeliever exclusive.

So it's a full circle again, however the fact that belief is all that is required to ENTER should not be broken.
(I'd take a look more into some of the OLTs, but I had to reinstall windows and don't have BW9 installed atm).

@ Hupostasis

Fair enough, as long as you know that I'm not promoting human works.


I think Matt 7 was directed to both believers and non-believers, since the same principle applies in either case.

For non-believers, the narrow gate is believing in Christ and the wide gate is destruction via second death.

For believers, the narrow gate is abiding in Christ, and the wide gate is destruction (atrophy) of the Soul (Mark 8:35).

Nevertheless, remember the thread you started on the rich man in Mark 10?
You stated that the rich man was a believer. I think you were right. I also believe that all 10 virgins were believers too.

Furthermore, look at John 15. It was addressed to believers only...
now compare that to Matt 7.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

For now I'm on the fence with Matthew 7 and the 10 virgins. The rich man in Mark 10 was definitely saved.

The parallel on Matthew 7 and John 15 are going back to 1 Corinthians 3:13 (and while I want to say it's not related to ENTERing the kingdom of God, this always seems to come up from the behind of outer darkness). And then that goes full circle back to the famous 'saved, yet as so by fire'. Of course meaning actually saved, but you did a poor job, son!

@ Hupostasis

Full circle indeed. This Outer Darkness thing has completely shifted my understanding of scripture, and every time I think I've reached a dead end, I find another rabbit hole to explore (especially Matt 24-25 meter).

I know that you do not make a distinction between the human soul and spirit, but maybe you might want to readdress that issue. I think it would help put a lot of things in perspective for you. It certainly resolved a lot of "contradictions" for me. That takes us back to the "three type salvation" topic.

I'm done for the night. Its good to see you back in the forum. God has used this particular thread to change my life...no joke.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

I didn't complete the 1965 Matthew series so don't have notes on Thieme's 'take' on it at the time. Do have the classes, though.

Conventional theological interp is that weeping/gnashing refers to hell/LOF. I think it's much more nuanced than that, a set of parallels, as you both are finding. In particular, the OMISSION of weeping/gnashing clause from the close of the parable of the virgins means they are believers. But can have an 'outside' fate like unbelievers but not as severe (i.e., still saved, still part of the kingdom of heaven just as the parable says, but 'shut out' in some way).

Question is, how to prove the exact precision. I know it's there, but can't see the exact keyword flow right now.

And yeah, my life hasn't been the same since you started this thread, hupostasis.

Bumping this up. Highlighted the 'bump' in red below. That will be key to the meter, whether it's an 'over there' meaning, or 'learn this lesson' meaning.

See, if it's 15 syllables, it goes EKEI, ESTAI HO... implying a stress on PLACE.
If it's 14 syllables, elision swallowing EI and ES, then seems to me it stresses the LESSON.

But 14 syllables is growth under testing (Jacob the origin of that doctrinal accounting metaphor, working 14 years for two wives). So would it also be used where the text refers to hell in other parts of Matthew?

I don't know. Haven't slept well since end Feb, but this is a good reason to lose sleep.

I was listening to RBT's Rev series, Lesson 457_0155, and I realized that I was overlooking a very important detail. Thieme stated that the Parable of Minas in Luke 19 was Bema for OT believers ONLY (maybe Tribulation believers can be included, don't know at this point). I couldn't figure out why he believed that, and then it hit me; The servants are judged at the Second Advent, no sooner. Therefore, the same can be said about Matt 24:42-51 and the Parable of Talents in Matt 25, since those are Second Advent passages too.

Again in the Wedding Feast Parable in Matt 22, we see the Bema before the Wedding at the Second Advent. And Matt 8:12 is Second Advent too.

Finally, Luke 13:22-30 (which I believe is primarily for believers) is about salvation of the soul, in the same way as those who endure to the end will be saved in Matt 10:22.

So my point is that, Luke 19:11-27, Matt 24:42-51, Matt 25:14-30, Matt 22:1-14, Matt 8:5-12, and Luke 13:22-30 all center around the Second Advent Bema event (not Rapture Bema), and all cases of Outer Darkness and Weeping and Gnashing of Teeth are therefore associated with Second Advent Bema.

So if the Outer Darkness is an exclusion from the Kingdom (and I still think it is Luke 13:28, Matt 8:12), is there any evidence that it will apply to the Church at all?

Possibilities:

1) Church was not supposed to happen, therefore it was not included in the cited verses, but the exact same penalty will be applied to Church apostates.

2) The Church is exempt because it is the Bride.

I'm not convinced that all of Church is the Bride, so I'm going with #1 for now. Part of my reasoning is that Church is the Body of Christ. Adam's bride was a small portion of his own body. Christ is the Last Adam, therefore His Bride will be a small portion of His Body (a portion of Church).

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Well, we don't want to conflate similar events. Matt10:22 (and later Hebrews 10 end) refers to persecution, i.e., the upcoming destruction of Jerusalem, not enduring to be saved spiritually. So is not the Bema, but how to be delivered while still alive down here.

Luke 13:22ff's Kingdom of God and Kingdom of heaven, are they the same? Or is the latter subset of the former? That's a long debate many have. I forget where Thieme came down on it. Luke 13:22 is about salvation, but there are many topics in the chapter, and it's not clear how you can assume that the physical deliverance talked about in Matt10:22 is the same as that in Luke 13:22ff.

I'll have to look up the Rev class in my notes and reply later.

Yeah, disregard what I said about Matt 10:22. Apparently I wasn't thinking very clearly when I wrote that.

I've often wondered about the Kingdom of Heaven vs Kingdom of God issue, though I've never really explored it. Maybe I should do that.

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HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Okay, re the minas thingy in Luke 19 (I've still not looked up my Rev notes): the inner story of giving servants money and the stingy one is in a different overall context versus Matt 25. Looks like the Lord told that inner parable two ways. So the meaning is related yet not the same.

I gotta think it over.