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PostPosted: 16 Jun 2016, 15:59 
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Well, the key is the midnight cry....the central focus in the parable. Manifest Destiny.
What is that Manifest Destiny???

For Christ, it is maturing His royal family for the Millennium.

So for the Cosmic messiah, Manifest Destiny is universal utopianism and equality...like in the Network (movie).

So the foolish will be advertised as fools via their pseudo-millennial doctrine. Its already evident as all of our diplomatic measures fall apart.

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PostPosted: 16 Jun 2016, 20:18 
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Ok. This is a big piece of the puzzle.

Virgins trimmed their wicks in 1882. Thats when "the Standard Oil Trust is secretly created in the United States to control multiple corporations set up by John D. Rockefeller and his associates." (per wikipedia).

So the virgins are waiting for their lord who has an agenda for the world. The virgins have oil, but are trimming the wicks to use the oil wisely. They do this to be prepared for their lord's return, and his agenda.

Standard oil was America's first major multinational corporations. It gave us the boost we needed to rise to the top of the future oil market.

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PostPosted: 17 Jun 2016, 04:43 
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Um, I don't think so. Your post about Mill resonates, but this has nothing to do with Standard Oil, just cuz they use oil (Holy Spirit) in their lamps.

So the actual text, even without timeline, could mean the foolish are shut out of the Mill, so are 'outer' (elsewhere in universe) during that time. You did speculate that, and I think Thieme did too. Problem is, the text of the 2nd Coming in Heb 12 and Rev 'seems' to imply all of Church returns with Him. Maybe not permanently?


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PostPosted: 17 Jun 2016, 05:21 
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Well, the coincidental similarity between petroleum and the oil in the lamps are not my focus and to be honest, I didn't notice it at first. Trimming the wick, is what I interpret as concentration, application, and preparation for what is to come. So what is coming? The Lord and His kingdom. Use that template to interpret the satire.

The Standard Oil Trust marked the explosion of America's oil industry. In order to achieve the American Dream (more perfect government....all men created equal), America would have to rise to the top of some global market. Over time, that market became Oil. Economies boom and bust because of credit and debt which is tied to the Petrodollar. Everything that happens in the Middle East is a result of our relationship with the Saudi's.

Standard Oil itself is not significant, nor is J D Rockefeller. The significance is how petroleum became literally BECAME the fuel of the industrial revolution, and now it fuels our wars. It became our point of concentration, application, and preparation for the global economy.

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Last edited by Anonynomenon on 17 Jun 2016, 05:33, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 17 Jun 2016, 05:30 
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Quote:
So the actual text, even without timeline, could mean the foolish are shut out of the Mill, so are 'outer' (elsewhere in universe) during that time. You did speculate that, and I think Thieme did too. Problem is, the text of the 2nd Coming in Heb 12 and Rev 'seems' to imply all of Church returns with Him. Maybe not permanently?


Matt 22:1-14 shows that the foolish are shut out of the Wedding. So I think all of Church returns with Christ, and the Outer Darkness could simply be a place in the wilderness. I don't know yet.

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PostPosted: 17 Jun 2016, 05:32 
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Okay, but that's not the focus of the passage. It's about wise and foolish, therefore fake or real Bridegroom. Oil is a tool used by a ruler or a nation, not the actual belief system of it.

As for your later post, 'outside somewhere' is about all we can say right now. But it is a smoking gun. Thieme focused on this in 1992 SD, speculating that the 'losers' would be 'sitting on the sidelines', 'just watching'. I don't recall him ever firming up that vague speculation.

It makes sense to say all Church is Bride, but not all among Bride have equal privileges. Esther was part of the King's harem, but only she was Queen. So the rest of the Lord's 'harem' vary as to whether they can even get in for the Supper. Only the 'wise' get to enter; which implies, that within the 'wise', there is also variation in rank.

Rank would depict closeness.


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PostPosted: 22 Jun 2016, 12:52 
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Do you think the oil in 1788 could have something to do with the ratification of the Constitution?

I'm thinking Federalism vs Anti-Federalism, but I don't really know at this point, but it seems to be the impetus behind the Monroe doctrine.

Edit:

So now I'm thinking the Foolish are the expansionists (French and Indian war 1758), and the wise where Anti-Federalists like Samuel Adams (speaking out against the Sugar act of 1764).

That would line up with the Constitution's ratification in 1788, since it was mainly a Federalist effort to replace the Article of Confederation, rather than simply fixing them. The Bill of Rights was a compromise between the Federalists and Anti-Federalists.

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PostPosted: 22 Jun 2016, 22:29 
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I don't know. It should be broader, wise=with MD, and foolish w/o it. Going by Tuesday's meeting between DT and the DEFINITELY foolish Xians, we have a clear demo of what 'foolish' means: yes, expansionist but esp. trying to politicize Christianity. Full-blown Rev17 harlot.

Transcript (I'm still listening to it, only 20 mins in): https://www.yahoo.com/news/transcript-d ... 10824.html

PS: we need to parse Rev17. See where it keys off Eph1:3-14 (should be at verse 9) and here in Matt24-25. In particular, I want to see when the harlot is introduced. But I wonder if ALL of Rev is now metered, since Rev1 is, and Rev17 should be.

Dunno if I'll live long enough to parse it!


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PostPosted: 23 Jun 2016, 00:30 
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My internet is down for the moment, but I'll look for Dominionism in early America on my cell.

If you can post a copy of Rev 17, I can start counting. Your manuscripts seem to be more accurate than mine. That way we can have another reference point for Matt 24-25 and Luke 21.

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PostPosted: 23 Jun 2016, 05:13 
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I can't post that much now. Use whatever text you have. So far none of the differences have altered syllable counts.

As for Dominionism in early America, it's not known by that name. Catholicism, Calvinism, all preterism, Methodism, etc. The 'classic' denominations are all Rev17, but the principal movement to go political was the 'Moral Majority' under Jerry Falwell (the dad) which you've heard Thieme excoriate many times. The term 'Dominionism' was invented then, held by Ted Cruz' dad, and many others. Just google, https://www.google.com/search?q=Dominio ... nald+Trump

But DON'T do it soon. I have a ton of work to do now. I can't really spend time on it until after October (and need surgery in between).


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PostPosted: 23 Jun 2016, 16:03 
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Okay, here's a tentative idea about the kind of satire Matt25:10-11 might apply:
:devil: false Rev17 bridegroom (political AND religious, i.e., Pat Robertson in 1996 or an alignment between, hence the source of Rev17's duality); the rise of the (vile) 'Moral Majority' movement in 1976-77! (which Thieme excoriated often; note 40 years after Falwell Sr is courting Reagan to get political power, fails then with Bush -- 40 years after that initial 1976, Falwell Jr. drools over DT this year);

:!: vs true Bridegroom, the 'sealing' (setting apart, developing) of Jeshurun (not necessarily mature, but on track and in Doctrine).

Audio says Matt25:9, but it's v.10-11, still from http://www.brainout.net/Matt24-25ParsedR5.pdf . Sylls 1946-1993 (1976-2023).

Audio (26 mins): http://www.brainout.net/downloads/wma/Anony5.MP3


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PostPosted: 24 Jun 2016, 05:09 
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Surgery? Hope everything goes well.

I heard your audio. I think you're right about the politicization of Christianity. I was born in 87, so all I've ever known about Christianity (aside from RBT's teachings) was "Southern-Baptist-Ronald-Reagan-Republicanism". I didn't realize that 1976 was such a pivotal year in the formation of that ideology.

You mentioned 2016 being 40 years from 1976. Those 40 years have to be especially significant. In 1976, we have the arrival of the "bridegroom", then in 2016, the foolish making their final call to the bridegroom. So if that particular 40 is significant, it would pertain directly to the Moral Majority harlotry.

Also I'm hesitant to write this, but I can't help noticing how this was REALLY applicable to my personal life. The door was closed in 1998, yet that was the year I was SAVED. The door to salvation was opened to me. Sadly, I wasn't serious enough about doctrine until late 2009 (other virgins returning). The year that Thieme passed was the year that I really woke up, and things started changing. So in my particular case (and I cant be the only one); while the door was closed, it was open to me, while the foolish where returning, I (being foolish too) was returning to doctrine. If I remember correctly, 2009 was also the year that I found your youtube channel (you might remember my first email).

Not to trying to make this a personal thing, but maybe the satire has a positive element too. Something that cannot be seen in political/historical herding. I really didn't expect this when I started metering. :eek:

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PostPosted: 24 Jun 2016, 11:05 
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Funny you should say that, I did make another audio about it BEING personal, but was loathe to post it. Hitting me hard just like you. The audio went through the confluence. Marking people for Jeshurun (not yet developed, but forming). I might send it to you as a PM.

40 years after Falwell Sr. backs Reagan to politicize Christianity, his own son backs DT. I think it's gotten VERY personal.

And not just here: Brexit just now, is 446 years after the English Reformation started, Matt 24:47 in the meter, just after the prior amen legw humin.

40 years ago, was the referendum whether to BE in the European Community. Heh. Seems like the 50/50 split in our voting for our 'bridegroom' and that of Europe has some resonance, too. Doors shutting all over the place.

EDIT through end of this post:

Rethinking your post. So then God in part caused me to know the meter in time for you to find it. And yeah, I remember your email. Probably still have it.

BTW, the Jeshurun series starts at Lesson 1054 of Series 376 1992 Spiritual Dynamics.

I'm getting the impression now that:

'Bridegroom' is a) the Real One, b) the pastor (Eph4:16's wedding-night verbs and 'haphe' means husbandman), c) some political leader deemed 'savior' by the Rev17 harlot Christians trying to politicize Christianity (i.e., the 7 Mountains movement which backs both Trump and Cruz, including Dobson and Jerry Falwell, Robertson, Roberts, etc).

'virgins' means believers. Foolish=carnal, no MD or reversionist, and wise=Jeshurun. But the foolish consider themselves wise, so when the text talks about wise, it has that sarcastic dual entendre.

Guessing therefore, that the next 30 years will still be marked in US by carnal Christians trying and failing, to get their political agenda installed, with even the c) 'bridegroom' using them to get power, then discarding them.


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PostPosted: 25 Jun 2016, 04:15 
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K, so I need to order the Jeshurun lessons. Thanks for posting the lesson and series numbers.

What's bugging me now, is, why the 40 ending in 2016? I mean, we have the obvious Temple 40 in Matt 24:1, so why no other 40s until 1976-2016?

There is a 120 between syllables 1826-1946, so 120 years between going out to meet the bridegroom (year 1856) and the bridegroom's actual arrival (year 1976).

The Know Nothing Party nominated their first presidential candidate in 1856. They were an anti-Catholic political movement. You had to be a Protestant to join. Reading through the wiki page, the Know Nothings sound like a bunch of Trumpsters to me. What a fitting name. Maybe you can tweet it. #KnowNothingTrump. :lolhard: :rofl:

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PostPosted: 25 Jun 2016, 06:08 
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Yep you can! Voici, https://twitter.com/search?q=KnowNothingTrump&src=typd

As to the other 40's, I'd bet it's not the only one. BTW, 2016-1976 isn't an even clause measure. I just noticed the 40 distance between the two numbers. So test for any 40 you think fit.


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PostPosted: 27 Jun 2016, 04:43 
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So it looks like the theme for the Parable of Virgins is Bible Doctrine vs Christian Harlotry.

1856--Go forth to meet (the bridegroom). The Know Nothing Party nominates their first Presidential candidate Millard Fillmore in hopes that they can win the election and control him. One of the founders of the Know Nothings was Lewis Levin, who very much into temperance. He seemed like a Moral Majority kind of guy.

1903--Give us from your oil. The Lincoln Legion is established to promote the Temperance movement. They basically tried to get people (children especially) to sign life long pledges to abstain from alcohol. So could the oil represent volition/commitment???

1914--For our lamps are going out. The Flying Squadron of America is formed. They start a nationwide campaign to spread and promote Temperance.

1927--The wise replied: The Voluntary Committe of Lawyers is founded to repeal the (Temperance backed) alcohol prohibition laws.

1940--lest we run out of oil. Too be continued...

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PostPosted: 27 Jun 2016, 05:09 
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Yeah, I've been thinking over the same basic theme but from different angles. FOR SURE legalistic, politicizing Churchinanity is in view. Going from Matt25:10 starting in 1960 AD to 2016 is 56 years (!) and of course from 1960-2001 (depending on the fiscal used) is 40. So another 40 to 2041.

Maybe a 3-year hiatus is between sealing of Jeshurun (counting all who are gonna be in it, akin to Rev7) so 1998-2001 was an interim period.

BECAUSE, in 1960's Christianity started to turn religious, goofball, and legalistic, as you'll hear Thieme excoriate during those very years. I remember it personally, but you can hear him talk about it or ask your parents. The Jesus Freak thingy occupied the 1970's, but the tongues crowd got started in the 1960's. So too the legalization and hypocrisy (i.e., prejudice against Jews, blacks, Latinos, Asians in full swing).

The 1960's was an era of dressing up to look nice, to outdo your neighbor, to live like Ozzie and Harriet, etc. I lived that life, and hated it. ALL SHOW AND TELL AND NO GENUINE HEART.


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PostPosted: 27 Jun 2016, 05:32 
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Oh yeah, I started off with Thieme's 1963 tapes. I remember him being very clear about the legalism and nut-job theology in the 60's. That's why I was so receptive to him, he stood out from the rest of Churchianity.

What about 1940? I cant really pin down a religious-political movement there. I know that during 1940, the Holocaust was going on, and USA was arguing between Isolationism and Interventionism. So Jews were being exterminated, while the world (more importantly America) stood on the sidelines. But I don't see how that pertains to religion in politics.

Maybe the silence from the Religious is the point. They were more than happy to force religious morality down people's throats, but they wont stand up for the Jews???

What do you think?

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PostPosted: 27 Jun 2016, 05:44 
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Funny you mention that. We didn't want to go into WWII but Hitler started bombing Britain in 1940, and at the same time, the America First Committee (pro-German) was started.

It's related to the Know Nothing movement, and was in part anti-semitic.

FDR was thus accused of using Pearl Harbor to get us into the war (not protecting it enough, liars said).

As for the religious nuts, well there were many. SDA, Aimee Semple McPherson and her nutters, Billy Sunday, John Birch and their nutters, many 'evangelical' movements during that time which were in large measure the anti-semitic precursors of the KKK.

Not to mention the KJVO movement, which started as a kind of SDA offshoot in the 1930's.

As for the 1960's, one nutter group calls it the 4th 'Great Awakening', here.


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PostPosted: 27 Jun 2016, 07:03 
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I cant really nail down any specific movements between 1940-1976. The Know Nothings, the Temperance movements, America First Committee, Moral Majority,, all those are pretty specific, but between 1940-1976, it gets pretty broad.

I do know that Billy Graham was at his peak in the 50s and 60s, and he stuck his nose into a lot of political issues...specifically the events surrounding MLK Jr. That might be significant, and actually, MLK was pretty significant too, since he used religion as a way to push Socialism.

Edit:

The year 1950 is marked by the wise telling the foolish to go to those who are selling oil. So who is selling? R. B. Thieme started his ministry at Berachah in 1950. Like you said, its no coincidence that we both study his material, so maybe Thieme and similar pastors are in view here?

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PostPosted: 27 Jun 2016, 09:42 
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Yeah, that's an interesting question. The 'sellers' would be 1950. Sellers of oil, spiritual bridegrooms (haphe in Eph4:16, which should be translated 'husbandman' since Paul uses WEDDING NIGHT VERBS sunarmologew and sumbibazw). Yeah, they are supposed to tell us how to get the Oil of the Spirit (1John1:9 and then between sins, learn and live on Bible under one's own right haphe.

So the wise are telling the foolish to go get Doctrine so to be filled with the Spirit. Or get teaching to know how to be filled (cuz you learn that from a teacher, though it should be common sense). Or both, cuz once filled if you have no doctrine, you've no resistance to sin.

And, lol -- pros -- face-to-face teaching!

That we happen to be under such a 'seller' for that year, is just 'extra' help in deciphering all this, and yeah I really doubt it's coincidental. WHO was teaching Bible from the mss in 1950ff? THOSE GUYS would be the focus.

EDIT: all throughout these chapters, the Lord depicts Himself in 3rd person. So by satirical analogy, the same references should mean HIS REPRESENTATIVES: teachers, and by extension, rulers (as in Romans 13, 1Tim2, the rulers are appointed by God ruling in His Stead).

So what's the DISTANCE between each 'master' or other reference to the Lord? I don't know if that will mean anything, but it might yield results like the anaphora does.


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PostPosted: 28 Jun 2016, 04:56 
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I'll have to look into the "Lord-to-Lord" distance when I get more time.

Can you elaborate on the face-to-face teaching? A lot of churches make a real issue out of it. Is there any spiritual benefit to being taught face-to-face over being a taper. I wouldn't think so, other than having the ability to ask questions in class.

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PostPosted: 28 Jun 2016, 05:08 
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Face to face versus tape/online used to be an issue because people considered themselves more disciplined if they WENT physically to the church. Thieme for awhile held to that, but clearly it's more an issue of what makes you learn better. For just as many go to church, to be SEEN and don't care about learning, at all.

Point is, in the old days you had to physically go to the home where the teacher taught. Letters existed but weren't as common. So pros is clever there but also in light of the controversy OVER face-to-face teaching in the very 'year' the word pros is placed.


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PostPosted: 30 Jun 2016, 07:57 
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PS I still haven't synchronized the meter between Matt24:51 and 25:30's weeping/gnashing clauses. They need to be the same count, but I can't yet figure out whether it's 14 OR 15. The latter is epic Greek meter. But so is 14 (at 3-3 and 4-4).

Since this is an anaphora from Chapter 8, it will matter a bunch to get it right. So the sevening apparent, might be something else.

Am trying to back into it by seeing what elisions I can make or remove just before the phrase, but nothing's jumping out at me right now.


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PostPosted: 30 Jun 2016, 20:28 
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Looking at the meter now, looks like you can elidekardia-autou in Matt 24:48, and get rid of the krasis in ekei-estai (I never liked eliding there).

Quote:
καρδίᾳ


My question is, does that iota hanging of the end of kardia make it sound like kardiai
????? Could you explain that?

From what I've read, iota subscript was a Medieval practice to indicate that the word in question was originally spelled with an iota for grammatical purposes, but the iota was not pronounced by the NT Koine era.

Quote:
There was no writing of iota subscript in antiquity. That was a writing convention that developed after 1000 CE. In pre-Koiné Greek there were three special diphthongs that ended in ι: ωι, ηι, αϊ. They were especially common in certain grammatical contexts like in nouns in the δοτική (dative) and in verbs in the ὑποτακτική (subjunctive). These were pronounced ω, η, α, in Koiné Greek. Sometimes ancient Koiné writers wrote the ιωτα vowel on the line in order to show the historical spelling and such a ιωτα is called ιωτα adscript. Sometimes they ignored the ιωτα in order to show the correct pronunciation. The ιωτα subscript after 1000 CE was a compromise. It was written under the main vowel in order to show that it was NOT pronounced, but it was written, nevertheless, in order to help to mark the grammatical category.

From Biblical Language Center


That would fix the first weeping/gnashing without screwing up the anaphora.

Everything I've studied tells me that the Outer Darkness is a place or an exclusion from a place (the kingdom). That's just my opinion for now.

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PostPosted: 01 Jul 2016, 19:07 
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Yeah, it is kardiai. So even if you run it together, the y sound makes it split syllables so you save none.

But what do you think of using krasis instead, in 24:49's καὶ ἄρξηται . I'm not sure it's a valid thing to do. If so, then someone should say something about it in 'krasis' articles. I've not yet looked them up in Google.

B-Greek would be a good place to ask, but they don't allow you to be anonymous, there. So we're stuck figuring it out for ourselves.

WAIT: I'll ask in twitter.


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PostPosted: 02 Jul 2016, 04:26 
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brainout wrote:
Yeah, it is kardiai. So even if you run it together, the y sound makes it split syllables so you save none.

But what do you think of using krasis instead, in 24:49's καὶ ἄρξηται . I'm not sure it's a valid thing to do. If so, then someone should say something about it in 'krasis' articles. I've not yet looked them up in Google.

B-Greek would be a good place to ask, but they don't allow you to be anonymous, there. So we're stuck figuring it out for ourselves.

WAIT: I'll ask in twitter.


Not sure that will work. Sounds a little weird for me.

How about this?

Quote:
c. καί. – (1) αι is dropped: καὶ αὐτός = καὑτός, και οὐ = κοὑ, καὶ ἡ = χἡ, καὶ οἱ = χοἱ, καὶ ἱκετεύετε = χἱ¯κετευτετε and ye beseech (64). (2) αι is contracted chiefly before ε and ει : καὶ ἑν = κἁ̄ν, καὶ ἐγώ = κἁ̄γώ, καὶ ἐς = κἁ̄ς, καὶ εἶτα = κᾇτα (note however καὶ εἰ = κεἰ, καὶ εἰς = κεἶς); also before ο in καὶ ὅτε = χὥτε, καὶ ὄπως = χὥπως (64).

http://www.ccel.org/s/smyth/grammar/htm ... 1c_uni.htm


We can try Matt 24:50, kai en. If we use krasis there, it would be kan? I've read that krasis is used a lot with small words like conjunctions, prepositions, and pronouns. Of course, I don't know how the meter styles differ between Attic, Koine, Classical, etc.

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The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


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PostPosted: 02 Jul 2016, 07:14 
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Yeah, that's a good point. So now I've got to search on whether that same construction is elsewhre in the passage for consistency.
PROBLEM: kan is kai+ean, so might be confusing, even if no subjunctive verb.

So we're both agreeing that in 25:30, 15 is the correct value? 4-3-4-4?


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PostPosted: 02 Jul 2016, 18:08 
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I would not feel comfortable with changing Matt 25:30 from 15 to 14 syllables. That will throw off too many patterns.

In all of Matt 24-25, the only occurrences of "kai en" are Matt 24:50 and Matt 25:43, if we use krasis in both cases, then we can undo the four occurrences of "se eidomen" in Matt 25:37, 38, 39, & 44. So that leaves us with 3 syllables to lose to balance the anaphora, so lets try: "kathisei epi" in Matt 25:31, "ta ethnei" in Matt 25:32, and "de erifya" in Matt 25:33.

That balances the anaphora, and it brings Matt 25:34a to 2765=105+(2100+560).

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PostPosted: 03 Jul 2016, 13:15 
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Okay, well I'm going with krasis instead at Matt24:49's καὶ ἄρξηται due to flow of text. It's natural for krasis to occur vocally mid-sentence. Done a lot when kai and the next verb begins with a, so pronounced κ'ἄρξηται .

Very common in all languages. Like modern Surf 'n' Turf to say surf and turf.

Then the total becomes 1606 (now short 4 in both directions). And, it's 490 higher than 1116 (after 2nd amen legw humin but w/o hoti).

So then totals change to 1635 (divisible by 3), 1658, then same 1673 when the elision is removed. So the only sevening is from 1540, so now diff is your 133. Pretty pithy statement, and the opposite in meaning versus the 77 diff in the R5.pdf draft.

But I still think there are self-cancelling errors afterwards, to 1946. There should be some sevening in between 1673 and 1946. Might be that we have to break the clauses more, since several of those lines are multiple clauses. I didn't break them for convenience, but maybe should.


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PostPosted: 03 Jul 2016, 18:25 
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Yeah, maybe we can break those clauses down further and find more subsevening. However, if you think καὶ ἄρξηται is proper, then that would resolve problem, right? At least for now anyways, so I don't know what you mean by 4 short in both directions. Do you mean 4 syllables short?

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PostPosted: 03 Jul 2016, 18:57 
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The 1540 should be followed by 1610 but it's 1606 (nee: 1607). Must be deliberate, as it balances to prior amen legw humin from 1116 (diff is 490, can't be a coincidence). But is 4 short of when the voting period ends. That voting period IS 1570-1640AD, which is exactly the same as the English Reformation. Can't be a coincidence, either.

So why the 4 short? Varro error play? I don't know, but it could instead signify someone's time grant runs out before the voting period ends. Similar weird anomaly in the 3153 (extending past 3150, why).

Unless there are other errors, of course. :P


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PostPosted: 03 Jul 2016, 19:57 
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BTW, I found someone noting krasis for kai en, here: http://www.textkit.com/greek-latin-foru ... is#p180005
Search on 'crasis' when you load the link.
Not sure I agree, as anything Chrysostom contends, is worth much. The guy was as antisemitic as they come.


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PostPosted: 04 Jul 2016, 00:04 
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Well, from the link I provided, they used "kan" as krasis for "kai hen". I suggested it for "kai en", and you're saying it already exists for "kai ean", so we have two established possibilities, and maybe a third one from myself (who knows very little Greek).

So was it a matter of context clues to determine what the krasis actually meant (kai hen vs kai ean), or is it a matter of dialect vs dialect?

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PostPosted: 04 Jul 2016, 03:42 
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Well, the Textkit thread uses kai en like you wanted to do. But it's using Chrysostom's quote of Scripture. Still, if that construction existed, maybe there's justificaiton. Chrysostom used kan for kai en. So I posted a query about it, http://www.textkit.com/greek-latin-foru ... is#p183747

I only joined today and am not allowed to post links, so it might be awhile before I get an answer.


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PostPosted: 04 Jul 2016, 13:31 
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Interesting article on how things were in 1976... http://nypost.com/2016/07/03/what-reall ... ndividual/


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PostPosted: 04 Jul 2016, 15:47 
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Take a look at this guy's syllable counts, and the dipthongs: http://www.textkit.com/greek-latin-foru ... 70#p183770

Someone just started a new thread there specifically on the topic of syllable counts, so I made reply, http://www.textkit.com/greek-latin-foru ... 86#p183786

You can join with anonymous username, but they want real address, and you're not allowed to post links for the 1st 10 posts. I'm just past that now, but am chary of posting links there until someone says it's okay. Those are their rules to prevent spammers.


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PostPosted: 11 Jul 2016, 04:53 
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Haven't had much time to spend on the meter this past week, however there is something I've wanted to look into for a while now; Magna Carta.

In the Revelation series, Thieme has been going on and on and on,...and on, about Magna Carta for about 4 lessons in a row now. At first, I was starting to get a little annoyed, but I do see the parallel between the Millennial kingdom and the old feudal system. Now I'm wondering if Magna Carta had something to do with the Meter in Matt 24. It took place around 1216, which is syllable 1186. That is right smack in the middle of Matt 24:36. Given our recent stand-off on this issue, I find the timing ironic, in a way, especially with the timing of Thieme's nearly obsessive emphasis of Magna Carta.

I'll see what I can find tomorrow.

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PostPosted: 11 Jul 2016, 09:06 
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Sure, look into it. Kinda strange, the context in Matt 24:36. I've not gotten that far in analyzing the text, but whatever takes place during those years would have to seem like a 2nd coming, politically. Or a Rapture.


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 Post subject: Matt 24:36
PostPosted: 12 Jul 2016, 05:09 
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I couldn't find much with Magna Carta. If that is the focus, then I can't connect the dots properly.

What I do see is the Catholic Church ramping up its totalitarian authority over Europe, starting with the Crusade against the Carthars, resulting in the establishment of the Dominican Order as the driving force behind the infamous Inquisitions.

1177+30=1207AD knows no one—Count Ramon VI is excommunicated for supporting the Carthars, as an attempt to assert Catholic authority over the Carthars. Excommunication was based on the "sovereignty" of the Catholic Church.

1187+30=1217AD not the angels of heaven--Pope Honorius III issues Gratiarum omnium to recognize St. Dominic’s followers as an order dedicated to study and authorized to preach. This authority was previously reserved to local Episcopals. Followers of Dominic considered messengers/angels

1192+30=1222AD nor the Son—Basilica of St. Sabina is transferred from Honorius III to the Dominican Order, in order to make it their official Stadium Conventuale (headquarters). By this time, Dominic had just died, but the Pope (playing role of Father) is transferring authority and dominion (inheritance) to Dominic (playing role as Son)

1199+30=1229AD only the Father—Catholic Church permanently establishes the Inquisition. It is charged by the Dominican Order in Rome. At this point, to challenge the Pope/Catholic Church resulted in torture and even death.

What do you think? Biting satire?

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PostPosted: 12 Jul 2016, 21:31 
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Could be. But I'd be looking for chiliastic movements during this time, see how the Church wanted to stop them. Cathars were chiliasts, https://www.google.com/search?q=Cathars ... 8&oe=utf-8


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PostPosted: 13 Jul 2016, 07:12 
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Here's an update on the crasis of kai en= kan as you suspected, this time citing the venerable Liddel-Scott, http://www.textkit.com/greek-latin-foru ... 76#p183776


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 Post subject: 'kai en' krasis
PostPosted: 13 Jul 2016, 07:26 
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He said that 'kan' for 'kai en' is popular in Attic. Do you think maybe Matthew was borrowing from Attic? I don't see why that would be the case for a simple conjunction and preposition. Ask him if that particular krasis was used in Koine.

If 'kan' is legit, then we could probably use the changes I suggested unless you see something else. The problem is, what other kinds of krasis could we be overlooking? That could be a very big variable, though it seems like we do have some very solid benchmarks.

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PostPosted: 13 Jul 2016, 11:33 
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Exactly. Attic was common enough. Just as you'll mix slang and highbrow talk in the same Spanish or English sentence, so too the Greeks. Similar to how one uses movie phrases, to switch to Attic (the language of Greek drama) adds color. Paul switches from Attic outhen in 1Cor13:2, to koine ouden in verse 3 (you'll hear Thieme cover that in 1992 Spiritual Dynamics, I forget where, maybe also in 1Cor exeg). Titus 1:12 is Attic famous quote, mixed in with koine words.

I suspect Hebrews 11:1 is actually some kind of Greek drama meter, but have yet to ask. Dramatic points often suddenly appear via dropped verbs, conversions of verbs to participles and verbal nouns, dropped prepositions (all Attic Greek drama styles).

We do the same in English, when changing the tone of discourse to a brief dramatic point. Or, just in speaking any sentence, you'll find a mix of casual and formal English.

So as for kai en, whether or not it originally was used in Attic, it would easily infuse into koine. It's in Matt24:50 and 25:43, so is convenient for the first, but overkill on the 2nd, requiring de-elision as well.

I'm not sure this is what should be done, but at least now there is more justification for trying it...


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PostPosted: 15 Jul 2016, 17:37 
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Remember our earlier discussion on 1976? Well here's a graphic on the history of #abortion politics which just showed up in my twitter feed from Washington Post:

https://twitter.com/PostGraphics/status ... 1048790016

This link is relevant, too, for our meter: https://www.washingtonpost.com/postever ... we-wanted/


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PostPosted: 26 Jul 2016, 00:21 
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Read this article to see the significance of how apt, Matt25:10-11 is, if we interp it as Falwell father-to-son politicizing, http://www.christianexaminer.com/articl ... /50898.htm

To me it's a smoking gun. Parallel post here: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=478&p=2838#p2838


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PostPosted: 26 Jul 2016, 03:59 
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Yeah, I listened to Falwell Jr's very dull RNC speech. I don't get why Christians want to be associated with that guy.

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PostPosted: 26 Jul 2016, 05:45 
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Political Christianity will take anything to get its goals. You discovered Matt24 just in time. I never would have guessed those ties so deeply, had you not done it. Surely God will use the discovery to help others, too.

It's like, ever since you did that, all the pieces are clicking together in my head from way back in my International Relations classes from 1971-75, during which time I learned of the Col.


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PostPosted: 26 Jul 2016, 06:17 
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Yeah, well this meter came at a very strange and uncomfortable time in my life, so I guess God was giving me something to focus my attention on. I'm just now starting to make sense of the past decades now too (as you saw in twitter). I always knew there were financiers behind our presidential candidates, I just could never make sense of the whole thing. Now its starting to click.

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The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


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PostPosted: 26 Jul 2016, 09:56 
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Well, we gotta grow. 2Chron7:14. So if it takes this disturbing meter discovery to do it, then even if we're the only ones, God will bless perhaps enough to stave off the war that is coming. Or better, to wake up others so the Jeshurun increase.


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