FrankForum (Frankness IS Forum)

[Drum roll]

The long awaited Revelation 17 meter: Below is a rough draft. I have not taken the time yet, to look for key words or anaphora, but that's next on my list to verify the sevening. I did include some of the Aleph variants, as they seem to make the sevening work much smoother.

You're gonna love the 490 in verse 10.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Okay, downloading it now, cuz I'm at a complete loss as to Luke 21, which has many anaphora keywords but I can't figure out what they tie to...

AUDIO VERSION of the first draft of my post (using Firefox add-in Text to Voice, which is gorgeous), is here: http://www.brainout.net/wma/Rev17post.mp3 . It is the same as the 1st draft, read 'aloud' from reading the text. So if I later change the post, those revisions won't be in the audio.

I decided to leave the post intact except for the first sentence, so the audio will remain the same.

So now the next q: how do I know the 847 is x7? Easy-peasy: meters stack. So 847-364= (drum roll please) 483. Sound familiar? Like in Daniel 9:26, all but the Trib counted? They're called 'weeks' (literally, 'sevens'), so x7. Duh.

Now, to the variants. You counted kai in v.10, and ten in v.13.
The kai is not in any actual ms of value; TR used it, and that's not an ms but a critical edition. So including it won't wash with the scholars.

The ten is in the first Aleph but only a few others. To include it stresses the type of authority given, as SEPARATE, so that's a doctrinal difference. It's more tenable, but scholars could easily dispute it, since it's in so few other manuscripts.

The bigger reason to exclude it, is grammar and context of prohibited oneness. Granville Sharp rule has one article covering more than one item to prove the two are related, so power and authority really are not separated: so no ten should be there, as lack of separation of power/authority is the problem stressed. The illegal unity is already indicated by the ten fronting dunamin. Same idea as pastor-teacher, no second article means it's all the same person/thing. So should be ten dunamin kai exousian to show all-in-one, which is the abomination being warned against.

BTW, that's what felled Rome: Augustus was all in one, no succession plan, and therefore the only succession that resulted was the army.

So now:
if we leave out kai in v.10, change sophia back to its classical three syllables which have no Hebrew counterpart so would not be susceptible to slurring, then v.9 is 449, and all the others are 1 higher till 10b, which is now one lower so still tallies to 490, tho I'm not sure it should. But for now, could leave it be.

John uses sophia a lot, it has a well-established name and Greek lit is full of it; but it's only used that once in Rev17.

As for v.13, leaving ten out, syllables from 13b through end 14 go down one. Remove elision from 15a's ἃ εἶδες because the sounds are too different, and the alliteration is intended (three a's, unholy, alphaprivative negative sound). So then 15a ends up staying 684.

There might be other changes needed, but those two would at least be needed since the mss nor grammar support including them. Variants I gave you have to be mentioned, but I didn't see one which ought to be included, on grammar grounds.

Biggest point to remember: don't force a sevening. Especially here, since frankly the sevening should only occur at the end (guessing). If it naturally occurs, then by the clause counts you can see why and where, cuz usually the writers pair clauses to have same syllable counts as a type of tagging.

Text sevens for a lot of different reasons, not merely to show spiritual growth. Here, the point is NO growth, but the Plan of God still works. So yeah, there might be a 490, 560 etc. to denote the Time Allotment, but we don't yet know if this is predicting specific future history like the Matt24-25/Eph1/Luke21/Mark 13 did. Maybe it does, in which case the meters will 'tag' those passages by sometimes having the same values. But don't force that, either. Just let the meter reveal itself as you do it first assuming no ellisions, unless you get tongue-tied without them. Then see what pattern results.

This is hard to do. It's tedious work. Had we all been raised on the meter since childhood, it would instead be fun.

There could be more than one way to meter it. If I remove 28 of the elisions, it still sevens at 28 higher and then v.1 sevens at 21, from the getgo. We don't get the 490, maybe, but I'm not sure that's the point. I forget if John used 21 before, but other writers did. The 56 would be lost, but a second dateline results of 70 (68 becomes 70), and the two still sum 91, as they should.

But that isn't to imply the alternative is right or better. In fact, the 19 you get at 17:1 is 89-19=70, Temple Down. John always measures from Temple Down in his first clause, whether it sevens or not; he then piggybacks to measure from the last time he wrote, to tie back to his own letters; again whether it sevens or not.

Gonna play with it some.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Do what you think best. Seriously. The real first purpose of doing this at all, is to build the bi-directional connection between God and you, which is John 14:26 in operation. To get used to knowing what He's directing, rather than a bad dinner, the demon boys trying to interfere 'from the peanut gallery' as the Col. used to put it, etc.

It's trial and error, hard cuz we're trying to RECOVER long lost knowledge.

BTW, your pdf looks STUNNING on my Android phone. I'm using XODO to download and read it. It has no ads.

Lemme give you an example of what John is doing here, a rolling dateline chain like Moses did in Gen1:

Hi, I'm writing you 19 years after Mark wrote his gospel, 19th year after Temple Down (70 AD+19, but John's still at year 18, anniv hasn't happened yet)
which (70 AD) was 44 years after The Lord began His Ministry,
which Ministry (27 AD) ended at his Death Age 33, which was 56 years ago,
so now He shoulda been age 91 at Tribulation Start but (cuz He's 92 when John writes), it didn't start on time and that's why I'm writing you.

John also switches between Lord's Age year and Adamic year.

So now look: Rev17:1, first clause metered at 19. Stands for the 19th year after Temple fell, AND 19 years after Mark wrote his Gospel. Cuz that's the last book which dealt with prophecy, prior to John.

56th year since Christ died at age 33, at start April. Chislev 88 AD is when John writes, cuz he's writing just BEFORE Christ turns age 92. It will become 89 AD in 28 days.

This becomes handy then. To balance to Matthew21/Luke21/Mark13 meter, you just add 56. Cuz all of them dated their chapters to 30 AD/Christ age 33 for the content.

When you're in the mood, you gotta reparse verses 1, 5, 16-18 by clause. Point is to find where the sevening really is, if any, but bigger point to find where John ties to Matt24, Eph1, Luke21, Mark 13 meters. Since John is writing 56 years after them (using Christ age 33), his meters will end up being 56 less than theirs, to tie. In the case of tying to Paul, John's meters have to be converted to AD first, by usually adding 87 or 88 (depending on beginning or ending of year in the meter he's tying to).

847 is the sum of 364 in Chap 1 (cuz John gaslights his meters) plus (drum roll please) 483, so he's playing on the meaning of 69 weeks. So all he need do is tag the METERS of the prior prophetic chapters.

It's not that he doesn't tie at all as if a timeline, cuz 847+89AD (since he writes at the end of 88) is 936 AD, when comes to power over Germany, and shortly thereafter begins an attempt of marriage alliance with , who was illegally under the thumb of .

Moreover, at John's Rev17:15 syll 711, end of καὶ τὰ δέκα κέρατα, that's when Charlemagne is crowned head of the revived Holy Roman Empire by a pope newly disenchanted by Irene running Byzantium for her kid Constantine VI. He had at least 10 kids&grandkids&greatgrandkids who became kings; Bible likens 'horns' to progeny.

Before that, the other big emperor Matt24/Luke21/Matt13 (especially) targeted, was Justinian, who ruled 527-565, and explicitly aimed to revive Rome. So lookie here: start of his reign is marked in Rev 17:8 as the beast who will come (439+88=527 in AD). He makes Byzantine Empire reach its widest extent by 565 (with territories lost quickly after he dies), so could you say seven kings under him then (John ends 477=565 just after hepta in 17:11)? Sure. More than seven, depends on how you package them. But that's not so much the point as he explicitly aimed to revive Rome so it's a good posterboy example for what John's being given, if the angel is doing a timeline.

Same as what the parallels in Matt24, Luke21, Matt13 say, with different text. These two events of Justinian and Charlesmagne are anaphoric centers tagged by Luke and Mark to Matt24 and each other; so it makes sense John would tag them, too. Actually, Otto is also tagged in the 910 meter which Luke and Mark share.

So look at the text in Rev17:
17:5 Diocletian and Constantine
:9-10 Justinian I
:15-18 Carolingians
:18 Otto, at verse end (just comes to power)

Now, the Carolingians did a massive reform at education wanting everyone to get Bible, and put Alcuin in charge of it, but still they let themselves be beholden though warily, to the Western Pope. Their idea was the same as Constantine's, to sponsor the religion to control it. So really that's the backdrop on how to read Rev17, the kings yes use religion for their power, but also to control it so it doesn't seize power over them. But of course eventually the religion will seize power, i.e., the little horn in Daniel 7 as elaborated on in Daniel 11.

So now parsing by clause is much more important, as it will help us see how John tags the before and after of each.

LOL you're right about 490 at verse 10. Changes the identity of the five fallen, maybe, to Babylon, Persia, Greece, Constantine, Justinian (which JUST HAPPENS prior to v.10). And there 'is' someone who replaces J then, ruling until the 578 where the 490 ends (.. and the one yet to come will still be, plus whoever the Trib anti-Christ is, since this is GroundHog Day prophecy.

Add 88 to the numbers, see for yourself. J dies 565 (just before eisin in v.9).

Cleverer still, because J lived so long, Rev17:10's 490 tags that number in Matt, which antedates Justinian by SEVEN YEARS (equidistance). Justinian built the Nea Theotokos (google it), a temple to MARY atop the HoH. Patriarch of Jeru started to build it 7 years earlier but hadn't enough money.

Cleverer still, since John's writing in the 7th year prior to Mill (6 years remain, but starting the count with 88, count it as 1 on your fingers, 94 is 7th), so he's adjusting for pre-Church Mill date. So 490 years from when he writes ties to both post-and-pre-Church Mill 490s. So OF COURSE the next clause is seven syllables.

Exhausting but fulfilling.

Ok. I reparsed and changed some elisions in Rev 17. The new document is in the opening post of the thread.

_________________
HEB 4:12
The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Looks good. Still need to parse 8a, 9b, 12b into clauses. Thank you! It's amazing how this fits the history.

Revised the pdfs to ref Rev17 meter, not fully but enough to see the wit,
http://www.brainout.net/Matt24-25ParsedR6.pdf
http://www.brainout.net/Luke21Meter.pdf
http://www.brainout.net/Mark13MeterR.pdf

Just search on 'Rev' to find the tags. They won't have to change after you reparse by clause, since I counted the tags by meter number in Rev17, like I'd bet the ancients all did.

Constantine's death is at BdeLUGma, so he's deemed an abomination
ΒΔΕΜΑΤΩΝ

I think I'm gonna de-Hebraise the meter to see what happens. Seems that the intent is to get to Otto I's crowning as Holy Roman Emperor, since he's the quintessential Daniel 11 making-marriage-alliances guy. Charlemagne was, too, but not so strongly. OttoII was married off to a Byzantine princess named Theophanu who ended up being regent to her son, Otto III. That kid (and he died at 21, no issue) actually literally tried to revive Rome.

The other reason why I'm doing it, is that the angel seems to be using Classical Greek. So I wanna see what difference it makes.

Still working on the classical-Greek style of syllable counts in Rev17. It doesn't seven AT ALL after 252, until the end; when it ends, it tags a WOMAN who would be called a 'scarlet empress'. Moreover, the Rev17 meter when converted to AD and then compared to Mark 13, precisely tags Mark13's meter at least three times. To the same YEARS. Same rulers as in his nested anaphora for huios and kurios, but John's using gune and therion.

Oh: and like Mark, John consigns a ruler's death or even accession to 'kai' (cutting off kaiSER). Really biting.

I've not tracked any tags in Matt24 and Eph1, Luke 21, nor have I yet looked for other anaphora keywords.

Rev17 becomes so clear once the meter is used to derive the years.

Redid the meter assuming Classical Greek pronunciation (elision and hiatus), . Also redid the others to show Rev17 tagging, though the Rev17 has the accumulated tags to these others, highlighted in yellow:



Also annotated the ties Rev17 makes to Ephesians 1, tho I didn't annotate John's 231, 238, and 252 tags to Eph, yet. Not sure why those tags are used.

Haven't also yet populated Rev17 with all the historical benchmarks he's making. So check back here later for redownloading the docs as they will be further revised and the names will remain the same.

All are now available in the downloads directory (public access),

Still have to reconcile how John benchmarks the 490, 560, cuz it seems he's doing it 4 ways so it won't seven but will reconcile. The point of the chapter is that there is little to no growth after Constantine, so he's avoiding sevening. It sevens at the end on a pun of the two Theophanu gals who both end up Empresses, and are both related to at least ONE Emperor, themselves. Very witty.

There are many intra-doc links to outside ONLINE writeups on the people tagged, so you can see the ties and the text within one document.

Examples of how Rev17 reconciles to 490s by his meter counts:
403=491 AD, start of the new 490 post Christ's BIRTH, like Paul framed his. I wondered about that.

438=432+6. Reconciles to 520 AD, a 490 from Christ's death (432+88 AD when John writes) and to the historical 490 that should have begun had there been no Church (+6 to get to 4200FAF, then start 490 over again). That one I tracked in .

479=567 AD, which is 560 from Christ's BIRTH again, but adjusted for the extra 6 as done above (7 when starting at the new year after close).

496 Blatant 490+6 to tie to the 490 beginning after 4200 FAF, from when he writes, 6th year before 4200.

503=591 AD, 2nd 490 start after voting period which began 520 AD, so measured as a 1050 from the Cross.

This way he reconciles to the 490s without sevening the text. Cuz the text is about the harlot, so shouldn't seven.

He does seven, but every time he does up to 252, he matches someone's text in prior Divine writ, with that number. I'm not sure how his text interacts with what he tags, yet.

John is something of a nerd about multiple reconciliations. I noticed that but didn't understand it when seeing Rev1; maybe now I'll be able to figure it out.

I tested the meter assuming no elisions or hiatus since the raw total is 875; all the tags, with, keyword ties to history disappear. Classical Greek then, as Rev is a play done in Classical Greek tradition, and Fake Church rules now and in the Trib, so no Hebraisms.

So if there are any remaining errors, they cancel out often.

Have fully populated the meter entries for the classical-Greek assumption of Rev17 meter now, . Also redid the others, so in the above post their links need to be used, again. Now I feel comfortable about the meter being mostly correct, but am still puzzling over 868's meaning. It's probable that he has another 56 in ellipsis after it, which would make the total equal 560 +364, but since he's writing in 88 AD I don't know what he's trying to say with that total.

Turns out the Great City is indeed Constantinople, not only because it's where Rev 17:18 occurs (and there is no other Roman Empire at that point, the HRE was in flux until 962); but because VIKINGS NAMED IT THAT, per J.B. Bury, The Christian Roman Empire and the Foundation of the Teutonic Kingdoms, Location 957 of my Kindle copy of his Chapter I, should be half way through chapter. As Bury explains, the Northmen called it Miklagard, which means Great City.

In short, Rev17:18 predicted what the Vikings would call it, and is very PRECISE as to what the Great City is, cuz the meter for those words is 939AD (end clause), time of Constantine VII and the Viking explorations; same period is the anaphoric center in Mark 13 (syll 910) tagging Luke 21. The same text as in the clause just prior in Mark, is in Matt24, just after its own clause ending in 901.

So that's a pretty clear definition of what the GREAT CITY is.

Update: I'm comfortable with Rev17 and Mark 13 meter meanings, though there is more to flesh out as to why they mark those kings so satirically. But Luke 21 and Matt24-25 connections still elude me, even though I generally know what they tag.

Am reading up on history to see what possible clues might turn up.

Revelation 17 Sarcasm Tour videos are up, start here:

Went back to re-examine Rev1 meter. It so happens that the 42 dates backwards to Claudius expelling Jews from Rome (45 AD, ref'd in Book of Acts), and the 70 another prior expulsion but Tiberius did it (19 AD, and they went to Sardinia). So John equates his being on Patmos, which was also due to expulsion. Not clear how it related to Domitian, but D did do a witch hunt in Rome proper. John wasn't there. Usually when these things happen, the rest of the Empire variantly has its local rulers expel Jews/Christians (not under Emperor orders but as an excuse or to curry favor or avoid being accused themselves). Probably wasn't just one time per Roman expulsion, either.

Ties to the text, since the theme is about how Jews and Christians are to be persecuted, the meter theme functions as an elab on what Christ said in Matt24. Clever how the text is matched to the meter, first being 'signified by sending' (for Claudius, since that's what an expulsion also is), and 'who testifies to the Word of God' (meaning John, thereby tying his own current exile to the Tiberius time, could be autobiographical of his family origin).

The 'Quantum Bible' subseries starts with Rev17, on the anaphoric center, here:



It CHANGES the prior reviews of Rev17, cuz I didn't notice the importance of Marcian through Anastasius until doing the Quantum subseries (which is still ongoing). REAL CLEAR TIE to 490 in John, but the kicker is the NAME of the Emperor at the time of the 490 change: ANASTASIUS (lit., 'of the Resurrection'). Which is even more remarkable, as the guy didn't come to power until late in life, had been extraordinarily religious prior, ADOPTED that name when coming to power in 491 (!) so how could he not KNOW the meter? He wouldn't know Bible if it bit him!

Prior Rev17 coverage in the very long playlist is marked off in vid numbers 96-102, then Sarcasm tour starting at 124. Table of Contents, here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... 4fmi3Xs3Yf

Sorry it's so long, but we didn't know what we were getting into when starting with Matt24-25, so the import keeps morphing, with new info.

UPDATE: Quantum Bible videos are up through Justinian as the anti-Christ posterboy, demo'd in Episodes 9-10 (very long, but very wry given J's actual history). Important comments in each video provide more links to demo the text from external sources. Point is to know HOW to do this proofing, not so much what 'I' say is the meaning. For the meter''s EXISTENCE, is provably valid. My interp of it, can be argued.

Next will be Justin II, but it will be awhile now before I can do more of the videos, as I'm in my work season.

Next in the QB series will show all six chapters intersecting on the same Rev17:6-8, but I'm not yet ready to post the videos.

I'll resume posting Youtube videos after October 15th. Will do a much more sophisticated Quantum Bible using ALL the passages (Matt, Eph, Luke, Mark Rev), then.