Biblical Topics

brainout | 25 Jul 2017, 10:41

Thread on the latest rapture drooling by #SevenMountains and other apostate, DT-backing Christians, and apostate #ThirdRome backing Putin Christians (who persecute anyone not Russian Odox).. oh, Christ might come back in 2030!

I'd warned about that, here:

But now, there's an actual site with wildly-wrong use of Bible (based on the number TWO), saying 2030, so you know millions of junk Christians will fall for it. He wrote a book, and yes I bought it, so I can TEAR IT APART. This thread is dedicated to that. Feel free to call me names, too.

2nd vid essentially same description, goes through that same first page in his website, quickly shredding his twisting of Scripture

Third one ends up complimenting his at least noticing that 2023 and 2030 are important, but not for the reasons he picked. (Even a stopped clock, like all of us, is right twice a day.)

These vids are all in the Matthew 24 playlist at 137-140, respectively. After 140, a new 'Quantum Bible' subseries starts, going back over Revelation 17, so you can prove in more detail, why 2030 is NOT predicted as the end of Church Age.

Now factor this in:

ISLAM has a collection of its own prophetical end-times dates. Google: the age of the islamic ummah and the proximity of the mahdi emergence

If you're willing to tolerate a guy whose native tongue is not English, this guy lays out the main verses and tafseer (exegesis by Muslim imams/scholars) in the hadith and Koran, about this eschatology:

I found that very helpful. Hope you will, too. What's unique about his account, is that Jesus (Issa or Eesa or Esa) is NOT the 'Mahdi' but comes down from heaven for the last battle (echoing Zech 14, prolly).

They don't notice the math, but you will, if you've perused GeneYrs.xls:
2130AD -7=2123-623 (really 622, year Mohammed left for Medina, called 'The Hegira')=1500.

THAT is when the 'Mahdi' (who, to Muslims, is also Jesus Christ) starts the final war to win for Islam (or ends it, accounts vary). This 'Mahdi' is supposed to 'appear' when 40 years old. So he's 47 when he wins, or 40 when he wins, but in either case notice the same numbers as used in both Talmud (Sanhedrin 97-99) and Bible (well, if you counted the dates properly) are used.

That equates to a different 'end times' scenario which also has convergence to the 490+70+490 structure (twice).

There's also the myth or prophecy of the '12th Imam', which is supposed to be the harbinger of the foregoing. Every generation seems to think it has that 12th Imam.

So now: do we spend our lives drooling over the 'end times' brother? Or (ahem) JUST LEARN GOD?

Well, many will drool, and that means from now until 2130, just as has been true every other last 120 of a 490, there will be 'wars and rumors of wars until I come.'

There are a number of videos in Youtube, and posts in twitter, claiming some variation of the 2030 apocalypse theme, none of them like the one above, but all of them goofball. In twitter, just search on 2030 to see the posts. Also, that 2017 nutter #davidmeade now claims October 15 as the updated 'end'. Just the same as my deadline for filing my client's pension plan returns (tho due to Hurricane Harvey, technically I have until January 31, 2018).

brainout | 20 Nov 2017, 02:26

I forget if I've made a thread on this elsewhere. If so, this is the new main thread, and I'll add links from the older ones into this first paragraph, as a sort of TOC.

I document the very many links of #TrumpRussia under that hashtag in twitter, so in Google just use my @brainouty name and the hashtag, to find them. Or, do the same within twitter. You shouldn't have to sign in, to do that.

THERE ARE MANY CO CONSPIRATORS, some of whom are famous authors, movie stars, etc. They have different goals to disinform Americans and Europe about DT and Putin's role in the electorate.

This thread is for anything #TrumpRussia, and I'll park some videos on it in here. You add whatever you think best.

There were some Russian-related bots from the first week this forum was open in August 2015, as members. I deactivated those I found, and will keep looking. The crawler bots which might be related to Russia are not on this board, so far as I can find. If you want a list of them, I can do screenshots.

ANONYMITY AND PROTECTION ARE THE HEART OF FRANKFORUM.

Three-part series named Zembla, done in Netherlands. In Part One, Malcolm Nance aims to convince you that DT's involvement with Russia started in 2013, same as claimed in the 'Steele dossier'. The dossier is in part, deliberate falsehood, not by Steele but by his informants, as Russians do employ 'informants' designed to feed you false info.

Nance consorts with a known Russian operative, and when I confronted him on that, he blocked me.

Here's the proof I have, in a thread of discoveries of a Russian contact who uses various names, but Nance endorsed her, as you'll see in the thread https://twitter.com/brainouty/status/932037720456749056

brainout🇺🇦 | @brainouty
The 'Gic' jerk woman is also @RobinBrenizer, who stalked to death a guy associated with KT, below. She exposes herself as Kremlin-backed, here and elsewhere, but esp here.

She has many twitter accounts with some variant of the two names, and is endorsed by @MalcolmNance

---

KT "Special CIA Operation" | @KremlinTrolls
#KremlinTrolls inadvertently expose their connections, all you need to do is pay attention. 🃏

Point is, 'controlled opposition', idea of Russia not being able to stop disclosure, but can HERD IT to some direction it wants as a decoy. Here, the decoy is WHEN DID TRUMP FIRST BECOME INVOLVED WITH RUSSIA? Per Nance, 2013, as shown in the Zembla series below (and it's false, DT first became involved in 1987):

Part One, Zembla

Part Two, Zembla (unfortunately not labelled part 2)

Part Three, Zembla

The series is something of a nothingburger, since names and innuendo abound. But the idea is, THEY knew of pre-2013 DT involvement with Russia, so why not NANCE?

Blockbuster article by politico, showing DT was likely recruited in 1987, not saying 'likely' of course, but setting that stage: The Hidden History of Trump’s First Trip to Moscow: In 1987, a young real estate developer traveled to the Soviet Union. The KGB almost certainly made the trip happen.

SO NOW ASK: how could NANCE not know all this, since the actual meeting and DT's subsequent behavior were all PUBLICLY DISCLOSED by DT himself (i.e., in Art of the Deal, and in his sudden 1987+ ads contra NATO and Central Park 5 taken out in NYC news)?

https://twitter.com/counterchekist/status/932701747251990528

Counterchekist #StandWithUkraine @counterchekist | 12:55 PM · Nov 20, 2017
Malcolm Nance was one of the biggest amplifiers of the “LM = alt-right” deza (disproven by LM = RT’s #3 enemy of Russia, and being on alt-right troll’s “hitlist.” Who else spread this deza? Cassandra Fairbanks (Sputnik) from her #provokatsiya sock puppet-account.

Just sayin’.

---

Counterchekist #StandWithUkraine @counterchekist | 1:01 PM · Nov 20, 2017
^^^^ Also worth noting: #OpBridgeBuster #OpTangoClown #OpGhostStories2

This alt-right “hitlist” was 1:1 copied from a troll spoof site of Chris Nethery’s blog; a site hosted on the same server as multiple domains registered to @/RobinBrenizer & was promoted by several “resistance” accounts.

Note th3j35t3r is absent... #OpGhostStories2 #FakeOppo https://twitter.com/911CORLEBRA777

This Post is from a suspended account.

---

Counterchekist #StandWithUkraine @counterchekist | 1:06 PM · Nov 20, 2017
^^^^ Kremlin-left meets Kremlin-right. Maybe someone should ask Malcolm about SkyHorse Publishing and their odd affinity for pro-Kremlin themes, conspiracy theorists, Putin propagandists, populism, and alt-right figures such as ROGER STONE. Just sayin’.

That is another post demonstrating that Nance consorts with and is endorsed by known Russian operative

brainout | 23 Jul 2017, 00:17

I've made a ton of posts re TrumpRussia in twitter, mostly articles and news, which need a permanent parking space, so I'll edit this post as time allows with those links. Meanwhile, here's my 7/22/17 assessment of how and why TrumpRussia came about. Takes an hour to explain, as the link goes back to the 1980s, sorry. The material is general, so if you already know it, maybe you don't need to listen. Upshot is this: DT wanted to be liked by the Kremlin since the 1980s, and really views his whole campaign and Presidency as a way to make Kremlin esp. Putin, to like him. So to him, there is no foul play. If DT is liked, it must be right to do.

Scary. Audio external link: https://www.brainout.net/downloads/wma/TrumpRussiaHowWhy.MP3

Turito | 27 Jul 2017, 13:02

This hypothesis makes a lot sense. I was adhering to the whole kompromat hypothesis. But, then, I was thinking as to how can you kompromat someone who seems to have no shame or guilt.

brainout | 08 Oct 2017, 01:54

The #TrumpRussia entries are now very many. Ties to #SevenMountains dominionism/dominionist in US (backing DT), and #ThirdRome in Russia are now so voluminous, you're best off searching on my @brainouty name plus any of those hashtags in twitter. MANY article now, lots of stuff happening.

This is the # 1 threat to the world today. Not North Korea or other usually-thought enemies.

brainout | 14 Aug 2017, 05:57

Movie was made in 1947, but applies wholly today, i.e., those Nazi rallies in Washington, Oregon, NYC and Charlottesville:

#TrumpRussia isn't Trump alone. It's a theological coalition of #SevenMountains Christians (most evangelicals hold to the anti-christ Rev17 harlot 'Seven Mountains doctrine, examples here: https://www.google.com/search?q=Seven+Mountains)

In Russia, this same doctrine is held by a large number of Russian odox, esp in the priesthood, who call themselves #ThirdRome . That name is of ancient vintage, going back to the 16th century after Constantinople fell. Russia feels it's the inheritor of Constantinople, and aims to REVIVE ROME.

Here's Putin's bid to be the Last Emperor (another myth key from the 16th century and before), showing the #ThirdRome doctrine:

This alliance between Russian and American Christians goes back to 2009, when Putin started courting them. DT, who just wants to get Putin to love him, started then aping whatever Putin said. Putin then newly rebuffed over the Manas Air Base by Hillary Clinton outnegotiating him, started his campaign against BHO and HRC, so DT did too.

DT doesn't know or care about Biblical issues. But he uses them to gain power. Pence is the guy who's into #SevenMountains, and most of American official Christianity with him. THESE are the real drivers of #TrumpRussia, and it's been going on for years.

TEA PARTY is #SevenMountains. Ted Cruz' dad is a proponent of it, just look up 'Seven Mountains' in Youtube and add 'Rafael Cruz'.

When Anonynomenon found Matt24-25 meter, I didn't know ANY of this. But the meter lead me to the research and you can easily find all this in Youtube, Google, etc.

I could say more, but right now just ponder the ideas broached here.

brainout | 10 May 2016, 23:33

NOTE: if you ever once believed Christ paid for your sins, use 1John1:9 as you read (i.e., 'I think I sinned, God'). Speeds comprehension (ergo my name 'brainout', reminds me to use the verse).

The Number 1 reason why Donald Trump is winning, is the apostasy of the pro-life crowd. This is Hosea 4:6, 8:7 and Galatians 6:7 in operation. Because, GOD says when life begins; it's a SPIRITUAL question, God's Right to Determine Life. God, never Caesar. Prolifers are busy trying to take away, God's Right to Life! So, we inherit the Trumpnado, Hosea 8:7, Gal6:7 (which points back to Hos8:7).

For Bible has always said, and for 3300 years Judeo-Christian law had reflected, the FACT that Abortion is not murder. For abortions spontaneously occur by the thousands, every day. Is God a murderer? Of course not!

Bible topic on that is here.

Videos most relevant, click here. Episodes 9-11 there are the most relevant, for they show in the original Hebrew text/Greek (and many translations, including Catholic ones) that a) abortion is a spiritual matter, and b) it's not murder. Of course, even the translations of Genesis 2:7 make this sequence clear: first body formed and outside, then God BREATHES life into it, and THEN you become a living SOUL. Not before.

So note well: to make ANY law or ANY provision pro or con abortion, interferes with the separation of Church and State. For it's a SPIRITUAL matter, not a legal one. Ooops.

Consequently, Judeo-Christian law in polities from Moses forward, alike recognize that abortion is a) not murder because BIBLE says you're not human until BORN when GOD breathes your newly-created soul into the exited fetus; and b) due to the fact it's a spiritual matter, not a legal one (which of course Bible also confirms). So even to this day, even the Roman Catholics who believe life begins at conception, have never authored a civil law claiming abortion murder.

So given this huge historical corroboration in both Bible and Judeo-Christian civil/criminal/case law on abortion, you'd think that the folks (starting in the 1960's) who instead covet Caesar's power in America, would be circumspect. By suddenly spitting on Bible and all that Judeo-Christian law, they claim SUPERIORITY over all past Jews, Christians, and even God Himself?

So, Hosea 8:7, Gal 6:7: 40 years later, in comes DT, the 'reply' to their blatant demand to DICTATE POLITICS to whomever would be the #GOP Presidential candidate: Rev 17 harlot 'prolife' movement in full thrall:

Their arrogance is unbridled. Now, we see in Donald Trump, the culmination of their bald hypocrisy: his positions violate everything in Scripture, including abortion, and they don't care. They back him anyway. For they want to take OVER the GOP. Prolife has nothing to do with it, and certainly not God or past Jews and Christians who KNEW what Bible says!

Anonynomenon | 11 May 2016, 01:14

Murder is a very serious charge. In many states, it is punishable by death as it should be. So if these retards are successful in classifying abortion as murder, does that mean that they are going to start convicting and executing anyone who takes part in abortion? That would be state sponsored murder.

brainout | 11 May 2016, 01:50

Yeah, no kidding. That's what ignorant DT was properly concluding when he had his interview with Chris Matthews:

'Properly', in that all the 40 years' political rallying that abortion IS murder, pandered from US pulpits, should therefore BE subject to punishment (yeah, if it's murder, then it should be juridicated as such).

But the power-mad prolifers don't want THAT, it will cost them votes with women. Duh. Yet more proof that God and the 'sanctity of life' is not important to them.. but rather, it's a tool to gain Rev 17 harlot political power. Fetuses are mere FOOTBALLS for these Titus 1:12 cretins.

Anonynomenon | 11 May 2016, 02:35

It's disgusting how Trump so desperately tries to talk his way around the 'abortion punishment' issue. He doesn't even have enough respect to tell us what he would do with his authority if he were to be elected. I have a real personal problem with people who beat around the bush like that. I'd rather vote for a used car salesman.

This prolife doctrine is one of the major issues that keeps the country divided. A nearly perfect libertarian candidate will NEVER get votes from the left or from Gen-x if they maintain a 'prolife' policy.

brainout | 11 May 2016, 02:50

Exactly. What's worse, is that 'prolife' is pandered in God's name, and isn't Biblical, so now millions of people associate that lie with God, and are even less inclined to investigate claims about Him!

Satan laughs his head off. It's so obvious: they use FETUSES to gain political power. And then want BIG government, in total contravention to republicanism, so to police SEX. Cuz that's what drives them: they hallucinate anyone seeking abortion MUST be doing so due to illicit sex! Whatever happened to 'God will handle it'? Gone.. with the wind.

So, 40 years later, they get Trumped: drool over the most provably-ugly, immoral, defrauding, disgusting man in political history. All because he won votes by white-supremacists or racist folks who wanna get back at Washington for working with some black guy.

Can't be more carnal than that. Breaks my heart. I've been GOP all my life. Crazy, when the Balaam's ass of the Dems, is more Biblical than what was supposed to be, the embodiment of 'Christian values'.

shadowimage | 29 Sep 2015, 03:12

Often perseverance of the saints will come up when explaining salvation, and calvinists or non-calvinists may quip: "well if you believe in eternal security you also believe in perseverance of the saints". Not quite.

Perseverance of the saints is a byproduct of predestination: so they are solely "persevered" as a result of being predestined -- and as such will never fall away. 🤢

Eternal security is also somewhat incorrectly defined, as most Christians will say something along the lines of "if you stop believing, you were never a Christian to begin with" (not being able to 'fall away'), so your eternal security is 'reliant' on the fact if you're consistently believing or being good... which allows more threshold to integrate with Calvinism.

But in an ironic way both cut out God and focus on the individual doing the actions: because it's reliant on YOU to keep hustling along, and psychologically condition yourself that you're "truly regenerated": potentially leading into a tunnel of depression as a result.

Eternal Security *correctly defined* is: when you believe for a second that Christ paid for your sins --and even IF you stop believing or blow up an orphanage, you're still saved because Christ did the work on the Cross. So Eternal Security --or-- "permanent salvation" *allows* you to 'fall away' and still be saved.

Therefore, Eternal Security is not reliant on God predestining you or "faith keeping", but the fact that you 'believed' for even just a mere second. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but that definition of Eternal Security does not jive with both predominant christianity and calvinism, which is why you often get the overlap between the two since they require the believer to "never fall away".

You can throw the "truly regenerated" and "never fall away" statements out of the window; if there was such a thing King David wouldn't have murdered Bathsheba's husband.

Anonynomenon | 29 Sep 2015, 04:55

You make some vitally important observations. I was raised to believe that salvation came by faith alone in Christ alone. No human works involved to gain or maintain salvation. For a while, I thought that the majority of "christian" denominations believed that, but now it seems that "faith alone in Christ alone"&"once saved always saved" is the minority. I guess my childhood was a bit sheltered in that aspect.

If these other so-called believers are mixing works with their faith, I wonder how many self proclaimed christians are truly saved? I suppose its futile to ask such questions in this age, but think about it...

If the Rapture were to happen today, would the world even notice?

There are so many false gospels that require action on the belivers part:

1. The faith+works gospel
2. The "salvation maintenance" lifestyle (faith+ intermittent works)
3. The "Let Christ into your heart" gospel
4. The water baptists
5. The tongue mumblers

It almost seems hopeless for so many people.

shadowimage | 29 Sep 2015, 06:39

I used to exclusively believe in works salvation because:

1. I wasn't paying attention to defined words & concepts
2. Nobody ever discreetly defined anything regarding salvation, so I never paid attention to it
3. Confused vocabulary is used along with prependisms
4. **the natural 'learned' human response** is to deny grace: "there's no way you can do XYZ and still go to heaven". Case in point, I've told people who weren't even believers and they vehemently recoiled in fury in response to grace.

As a result it hit me harder than anything else to date. Because I was so wrong, and it's so obvious.

I created one of the biggest articles going through every single contradiction and issue with works salvation here: underthebible.com/salvation.htm

Consider it a WIP since there's always something to add, but that covers *most* of it. It's funny because I always cringe when I hear key terms like: "repent" / "genuine" / "authentic" / "heart" / "faith". Repent should always be MIND CHANGE, genuine/authentic/true/actual don't exist and are prependisms to create an artificial layer on belief. Faith is not good for pistis (should always be 'believe/belief') unless we're referring to monadic pistis "THE faith".

Aha, you're either saved or not saved-- "truly" saved isn't a thing as you can't be re-saved, right? That's one problem with works salvation: there's no mention of being able to lose the holy spirit, or an imaginary holy spirit meter to determine when you're not saved / saved and what variables affect it simultaneously in real time. The problem is (and I have this problem a lot) is you hear phrases like that and you start to subconsciously utilize them (I'm not trying to be rude but to show how it starts to affect everyone--and I am no exception). It was the basis for my analysis on prependisms:

1. Actual
2. Authentic
3. Earnestly
4. Genuine
5. Real
6. Sincere
7. True

And of course these are words that are used to REPLACE 'believe' (pistis) entirely:

1. Admit
2. Accept
3. Acknowledge
4. Commit
5. Real
6. Invite
7. Trust

You can do any one of those and it is meaningless. I can *admit* Christ and not believe. I can *accept* Christ and not believe. I can *acknowledge* Christ and not believe. I can *commit* Christ and not believe. I can *invite* Christ (however the heck you would do that) and not believe. I can *trust* Christ and not believe.

The issue starts to become not so much salvation, but Bible Doctrine in your thinking. I mean, salvation is the greatest gift: but the focus isn't on it since the Christian life focuses on post-salvation. For a case scenario, let's say everyone in the world 'believed' instantly. That'd be great but instead of the lake of fire, people would be in heaven in outer darkness: retaining their original thinking. Possibly despising God or envying those who became kings.

If the rapture happened today, I would say yes. At this point right now because we have computers, loads of manuscripts and some fantastic teachings that were dug up after being on standby for so long-- the ratio of potential pleroma believers is probably higher than it has been for a long long time. I mean, you could probably count the individuals on a set of hands, but that's still a lot! When the rapture nears there'll be no pleroma believers.

I've always used the term "salvation upkeep" but I quite like "salvation maintenance". I've been meaning to get further into baptismal regeneration, but haven't had the chance yet since it's on low priority.

At any rate, perserverance of the saints is the *opposite* of permanent salvation.

brainout | 29 Sep 2015, 07:22

You both are raising some really good points. I just wanted to add re the Rapture idea that Bible nowhere says that millions of Christians will be on earth when it happens. Official Rapture term is exanastasis (sorry, still haven't reinstalled Bibleworks), I want to say it's somewhere in Phili 3:10-12, should be translated 'exit resurrection' but I think in translation, they leave out the 'exit' (exz in Greek).* It's surely not secret.

Logically, it seems like the LAST CHRISTIAN is the litmus. Last to complete whatever is the Body of Christ Father determines per Christ's prayer in John 17. Last KING, last one to mature to the Kingship criterion in Eph 4:12-13 (imo KJV has the best translation, ironically enough).

So the implication is, that there wouldn't be anyone else believing in Christ if Church Age went on one day longer; that no one who is a believer will grow spiritually one whit more, if the CA went on one day more. So that argues for a population of believers which has dwindled down to nothing, kinda like in Noah's day, and of course the Lord did draw that parallel.

If you see a better conclusion, let me know? Sorry to interrupt, please feel free to ignore my post if you want.

*EDIT: it's in Phili 3:11, have now installed BW5 again.

Anonynomenon | 29 Sep 2015, 18:17

@ shadowimage

By "truly saved", I meant whether those who believe they are saved, actually believe(d) that Jesus died for our sins. Nonetheless, I do see what you're saying. The use of certain words in place of others has a subtle suggestive power on the subconscious mind, almost like a form of mass hypnosis. Next thing you know, the hypnotized are out hypnotizing others.

Take for example, what I call the "cardiac invitation" gospel. Once I asked a preacher what exactly it meant to "invite Christ into one's own heart". The follow-up to that question was a long winded quasi-gnostic philosophical lecture. Had I not already been a believer, I would have been so hopelessly confused.

Its rare to find someone who teaches the real gospel message by itslef: to believe that Jesus died for our sins. I find it a bit scary that such a simple message is so widely distorted.

@ brainout

Feel free to chime in at anytime. I find your opinions to be thought provoking. 👍

I do see what you mean by the last Christian, but at the same time it could come down to the last maturing Christian(s). Lets say out of a roomful of believers, only 3 or 4 are actively learning and applying doctrine. Those 3 or 4 might be buying time for the inactive believers to start growing again. Even though God knows that those believers will at some point refuse to grow, the opportunity might still be offered to them. I'm just talking hypothetically here. I realize that such a situation would not be measurable from our perspective, and I do hope that there are more than a roomful of believers in this world; but seeing how rare it is to find a Church that still teaches the gospel (at least in USA), the question enters my mind quite frequently.

brainout | 29 Sep 2015, 19:42

Yes, last maturing Christian is the more likely. And yes, buying time. The calculation of what's fair and what's foreknown would be determinative, but only God knows the answer to all that. Hence Rapture is unpredictable, for we don't know when that 'ripeness' will occur.

And there will always be a few pastors who teach doctrine properly, even as 90-99% will always be apostate. But even an apostate pastor can occasionally impart Bible properly, so that buys time, too: for him, for his congregation, for those around them.

shadowimage | 30 Sep 2015, 06:06

I find that "truly saved" is used to question salvation, so it has become a polluted term. It's saved or unsaved, we don't need a third option.

The reason why that preacher started with "inviting / accepting into the heart" and then spiraling out of control into a bunch of procedures is because he never bothered to look into what it (discreetly) is, so the information in his mind has no boundaries and it spirals into chaos. I did the same thing years back, I'd end up with a mess of steps required to be saved, and say things like "accept with your heart", so the correct terms weren't even being used. I just subconsciously heard that and apparently repeated it.

When you don't have the information of "believe only = permanent salvation", it becomes a dog's breakfast and anything goes. And because anything goes, you end up with a "winded quasi-gnostic philosophical lecture". 🙄

I find there are christians who DO teach "once saved always saved even if you do whatever", but often institute faith-keeping. So soon as you stop believing, "you were never saved to begin with" so they just contradicted "once saved always saved". OR, my least favourite individuals who play the word games "you are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is not alone" <-- THEN YOU ARE NOT SAVED BY BELIEF ALONE!!!! It's a word game to say "believe only" but then quickly add the invisible strings while trying to claim they're NOT invisible strings. I know such a pastor who is arrogant like that, he talks about "grace" and then pulls the "faith without works is dead / the demons believe also" card. Of course believing without God's divine work in you is dead because you're a standby believer which has nothing to do with salvation. And the demons don't *believe* in Christ, they believe the doctrine of the trinity, there's no such thing as "demon faith". I got so sick of hearing that at one point I 1 Peter 5:7ed it to God via 1 John 1:9-- and what do you know. Awhile later he went on vacation and the whole week there was a new guest pastor each day who talked about salvation being on with belief and no works. It actually made some of the "works" congregational members upset and they left the church. Go figure.

Anonynomenon | 30 Sep 2015, 15:07

Yeah, people always use the "demons have faith" argument to attack 'faith alone'. My response to that is, demons (and some non-believers) have a total disregard for righteousness vs sin. In their eyes, their sins aren't actually sins at all, so how could they believe that Christ paid for sins if they don't believe that they even sin in the first place.

brainout | 30 Sep 2015, 20:40

That 'demons have faith' line has a different yet related meaning, when you consider that Greek pistis usually means DOCTRINE everywhere in the NT. 'The faith', we'd call it, as that's the Greek term too. So you can have the doctrine, Deut 30 and Romans 10:9-10, but do you BELIEVE in it?

Then there's the difference between believing God is One, versus believing IN Him. Sure, we all believe certain things are facts, but do we believe IN? I believe God exists, but do I believe IN Him to save me? Very different thing. Say you're married, and you have kids. You well believe you're married and have kids, but do you believe IN your spouse, your kids? Very different thing.

Hebrews 11:1 ties. We are on trial for the Doctrine of Christ, whether we believe IN it, IN His Thinking. I tried to show that in video, here.

And we all fail to believe IN what He says, de vez en cuando. But that's not a salvation issue, nor is James about how to be saved, but how to mature.

brainout | 19 Aug 2015, 23:30

There's a huge debate among Muslims, Jews, Christians as to WHERE in the Bible Christ is said to be God. It's not an easy question to answer, because the Bible is a literary work and uses clever rhetorical styles to say things. So you have to really think when you read, not just gloss over the text because you've heard it droned so many times from pulpits.

So this subforum is for that debate. To help get your thinking juices flowing, I posted a lot of videos showing how in John 8 alone, Christ says He's God over 50 times. I thought it was only 26 until someone in Youtube challenged me. The video series is in two places: click here for vimeo (quieter and easier to watch in context), or click here for Youtube (including many comments already made on the videos).

Then out of curiosity, I did a pan-OT search to prove the 'Son of Man' title He calls himself in the NT, is ONLY a quote from Daniel 7:13, whose whole chapter is a unique OT assertion of Him being God-Man, coming at the End of Time (origin, probably, of the Greek idea of deus ex machina, since Daniel was made hostage in 607BC under Nebuchadnezzar, per his own meter in Daniel 9.)

But you don't have to use that material. Do your OWN thinking and your OWN reasoning, arguing, debating. For it really seems God's more interested in YOU developing YOUR thinking YOUR way, than in whether you get the right answer. It's not that being right is unimportant, but rather Freedom is the FIRST righteousness, the sine qua non of Righteousness. That's what I'm now concluding from everything I read in Bible. Hence this frankforum!

Have at it!

brainout | 20 Aug 2015, 02:05

Christians roughly and often bitterly divide, over whether the Jews have a future in history; and particularly, whether God's Promises to the Jews in the OT, even still apply to them. Much of what has become modern history centers on this divide, especially from Constantine (when the Catholic church really began, by his fiat).. through the Reformation. Even long after the Reformation began, since its main proponents Calvin and Luther were so virulently anti-Semitic, whether in Catholic or Protestant lands, pogroms against the Jews continued to be based on a claim that God has rejected them. So you see, this is a rather toxic and important topic to analyze, especially now with all the attention focused on the Middle East.

There's a running and odd historical trend from the first-century forward: interest favoring the Jews and interest in learning Bible, correlate positively. So, when interest in learning Bible declines, interest in protecting the Jews declines as well. When this decline occurs, a rise in religious institutionalism accompanies it, which you can usually demonstrate by looking at Church History, especially the 'councils'. During such a rise, the freedom to get and read Bible for itself, diminishes. Then comes some kind of war, when the variant religionists fight each other. The wars of Europe mostly register these changes, and of course the pogroms follow or precede. Good book tracing these is the Atlas of Bible and Christianity edited by Dowley, and also Christopher De Hamel's History of the Bible.

So: among Christians, the majority, Calvinists and Catholics, many Anglican, Seventh-Day-Adventist, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, and even some Baptist groups -- these generally hold that when Israel rejected Christ at His First Advent, she forfeited all the eschatological promises made to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David -- so Church instead inherits those 'covenants' or 'promises'. This majority group's position, is often categorized as 'Reformed Theology' or more aptly, 'Replacement Theology', in Christendom.

A large and vocal minority, often called 'Dispensationalists' -- who also span many denominations or 'independent' groups that defy precise classification -- these 'Dispies' usually hold variants of the idea that the eschatological promise to the Jews is YES future and YES separate from the promise aka covenant to Church, an entity created by Christ postmortem based on Matthew 16:18 and ratified in John 17. Consequently, within this group, there is a debate over when the Church covenant begins and ends; and consequently when the one to Israel, recommences and finishes. The Church 'Age' or Covenant's commencement is generally agreed to begin at Pentecost, though some think it doesn't begin until the appointment of the apostle Paul (with what proof I do not know, I can't find any Biblical justification for a starts-with-Paul contention).

Ergo, most 'Dispies' would tell you that due to 1 Thess 4:17, there will be a 'Rapture' (Anglicized version of Vulgate in that verse, Latin rapiemur translating Greek harpagesometha), and this 'Rapture' ends Church and begins the Tribulation, which is the last 7 years promised to Israel per Daniel 9:27. After which, she is still 'queen of the nations' in a literal Millennium.

Sad to say, the Biblical scholarship by both Replacement and Dispie 'camps', even among their degreed folk.. is abysmal. So you end up with silly and scurrilous movies like 'Left Behind' and 'Da Vinci Code', and all manner of related print nonsense, which have nothing to do with the Bible text, or even with either side in this 'debate'.

Of course, most Jews hold they have a future promised by God too, and most believe in a literal 1000 years which Messiah starts. They disagree whether Jesus is the Messiah=Christ (Heb=Greek), so if disagreeing, think there is only the latter 'Advent'. Surprisingly, some Muslims hold that Jesus is the Messiah (as herald of a 2nd coming of Mohammed, though some don't believe Mohammed will return) -- but claim the Millennium belongs to them, rather than to the Jews.

Replacement Theology holds that it belongs to Church, if a literal millennium. For example Calvin thought it means replacing the Catholic Church of Revelation 17 (which text isn't necessarily Catholic, but definitely Roman). Many in the Replacement camp deny a literal Millennium altogether, chiefly Catholics, since Origen allegorized Revelation 7 against the plain text of Jewish tribes, to mean only Christians; so did Augustine, in other respects. (The links are searches, so you can select sources you respect.)

So this thread relates to these positions. If you want to know where I stand, it's YEAH Pre-Trib Rapture, because the timing of the Tribulation is a set of accounting books which has been tracked since Genesis 1, in the Hebrew meter; because every Chapter of the NT references it as a historical backdrop, and every Chapter 1 of every NT book continues the OT timeline: in particular, Paul creates an annual prophetic timeline for Church 62nd-week time loop playing directly on Daniel 9:26. Documented in videos (ongoing project), to wit:

• Basic math, here; master that first, or you'll not be able to follow the meter. Notice the core is built around Genesis 5, so now you know why all those Bible dates are so annoying and plentiful. BIBLE'S TRACKING TIME. Question is, why? Well.. countdown to Messiah, a promised 2100 years, which any Jew can explain (they think it's only 2000, rounding it off). Christians don't know anything about this, but it's all over Scripture.

That's the 'dispensation' the BIBLE accounts:

• 2100 years for the goyim = Adam to Abraham, and it matches the Bible timeline, which is tracked, Abram becoming mature year 2046 from Adam's fall; then
• 2100 years for the Jews = Abraham to Christ, and He's born 4103 from Adam's fall;
• then Messiah comes (yeah, and He died per the tracking in Bible, year 4136 from Adam's fall),
• with the Millennium then supposed to be 53.5+3.5 years away but instead 64 years away,
• to pay back 2100-2046 (plus a 3.5 year loss owing to late start of 1st Temple), also tracked from Moses in Psalm 90, forward. This way the shortening of 'Gentile' time is made up. So each 'group' gets a total of 2100 years.
• TWO 'dispensations', essentially.
• But Christ being rejected, took out the Time Bridge, since the last 7 of the 2100 for the Jews, hasn't played.
• For Daniel 9:26 ends at 37 AD, but He died 7 years prior, so that's why Israel is owed seven years (586 BC Temple down +70+70+483=37AD, the accounting begins with Temple down not Nehemiah's return, since the Decree is GOD's, not a human King, Daniel 9:2 reading Jeremiah 25 and 29, and Daniel 9:24. Thus the two 70 reimbursements, then 69 weeks, with the Trib supposed to follow after).
• Ergo, Church is a Time Bridge. So THREE dispensations total, prior to Millennium. How long the third one lasts, is not stated, as its completion depends on bodies, not set time, per Father's discretion, John 17:20ff.

• Moses begins tracking both 2100's in Genesis 1, here:
• Moses creates a panoramic tracking of both the Adamic and Abrahamic 2100's using sabbatical meter accounting in Psalm 90, here.
• Isaiah tracking Moses, here.
• Daniel tracking Isaiah, here.
• Mary tracking Daniel, here.
• Matthew tracking Moses' endpoint and Mary, here.
• Luke tracking Matthew and Paul through Mary, here.
• Mark tracking Luke, here.
• Paul tracking Luke through Mary then satirizing the future history of Church, here. Map of his rhetorical style, is here. It's a lot of material to slog through, sorry. Took me over a year to write.

Then, in the Year of the Four Emperors,

• Peter tracking Paul's Ephesians meter to make a marching song out of Church prophecy, here.
• Jude tracking Peter, here.
• The writer of Hebrews tracking Mark tracking Luke tracking Paul, here.
• Then, beginning 7 years after the Temple fell just after the Year of the Four Emperors (August 70 AD),
• John tracks the writer of Hebrews, Paul, Peter, Jude, Mark, and then back to Daniel, here.

In short, there's a lot of tracking using the same OT timeline system, a kind of rolling calendar, here's where we are on the time map. Now, is that material correctly interpreted? Probably not. But until I find where the errors are, I'm sticking with it. If you find any, let me know!

Else, debate as you will. I won't jump in unless you ask. Frankforum's supposed to be about YOU, as my stuff is already 'out there'. Enjoy!

Anonynomenon | 26 Aug 2015, 01:16

Hi there.

I'm a fellow pre-tribber. You've done alot of studying on the subject. Very impressed :mrgreen: Since nobody's debating yet, I'd like to ask you about Acts 2:17's citation of Joel 2:28. Joel was talking about Israel's reception of the Holy Spirit in the Millennium, right? So was the prophecy duplicated for the Church? Surely Israel will still recieve this blessing. Wouldn't that make the Church a preview of sorts for the Millennium?

What got me thinking about this was the dispensations you outlined: 2100 years for gentiles, 2100 years for Israel. So why only 1,000 years for the Millennium ❔

brainout | 26 Aug 2015, 02:36

Good questions. The actual Mill period is 1050, same as before (1050+1050=2100). So the Gog Magog begins when the 1000 years have ended, get it? From Rev? As for why it's not 2100, I don't know. The meter is always the same, stressing a 1050, not 2100 ending; even when John plays on Daniel 9, see JohnDatelineMeters.pdf or the later LukeDatelineMeters.pdf. Or 'htm' or 'doc', but the latter two require Bibleworks fonts, to read the Greek.

Many Jews see the last 1050 which they call 1000, as part of a 2100 which they call 2000, belonging to 'Messiah'. Google on 'Age of Messiah' to see that. Oddly, you might find some Muslim sites with that too. I remember finding one some years back, want to say it was haroun yahya, but maybe not.

As for the tie between Acts and Joel, yeah. Teachers vary, but the idea was that Israel's Filling would have a physical component, like it did at Pentecost, but for Church it doesn't. For Church the keywords differ: plerow and pleroma, not goofy or ecstatic. Those NT keywords are the same as for the Lord, and He was never drooling/dancing like Saul or David; the OT Greek term for them was pimplemi (like being filled after a good meal, same as Hebrew sabea).

Anonynomenon | 26 Aug 2015, 04:43

Well here's a funny idea. If the Millennium belongs to the Messiah, what if human history is actually bisecting a hypothetical 2,100 year Messianic reign? Pre-trib theology is dependent on the Church acting as a spacer between the cross and the Trib. I've seen some of your clips on the Genesis restoration, the possibility is thought provoking. Jesus is King of kings, surely He must have ruled over Lucifer and friends as such before they fell into sin. According to the Genesis restoration theory, the Cosmos were destroyed and rebuilt (I think it was literally flooded with water), we know that the same thing will happen with fire after the Gog and Magog revolt at the end of the Millennium. Water first then fire. Maybe the kingdom of God is like a Millennial sandwich, lol.

brainout | 26 Aug 2015, 05:58

Possibly. The thing is, what if any is the relationship to the fact that now history is almost 2000 years post Cross? Maybe it's just coincidence, or wishful thinking, but if there's some kind of balancing to Jewish time, then we're due for something. Maybe not the Rapture, but.. I don't know. Rapture cannot be predicted, as it's based on bodies, not time, John 17:20ff being the criterion, echoed in Eph 4:12-13, idea of the 'destination of life', katantaw being the fullness of the maturation of Christ (which seems like a corporate thing, since no individual will mature as much as He did).

Paul measures the new 490 from Christ's Birth, which shocks me. His dateline picks up where Mary left off, in Ephesians 1:4 at 56 (age of Christ=syllables), so that would be our 59 AD. Paul and the NT writers have their own Anno Domini which coincidentally tallies with our own because Varro made the same mistake in reverse as Dionysius made in retrospect; but to the NT writers, the A.D. is measured based on how old Christ should have been pre-adjustment for David's delay (born 4106 from Adam's Fall), or would be after that adjustment (actually born Chanukah 4103 from Adam's fall, ties to Haggai 2). I've not worked out all the details to make the conversion, but usually 6 years works.

Anonynomenon | 30 Aug 2015, 02:34

Have you found any reason to believe that the Church's present duration of nearly 2000 years some how balances to Jewish time? Honestly that would kind of scare me. I would have to reassess my understanding of the rapture if any such evidence did exist. What could that mystery event be if not the start of a new dispensation? I would think that the imminent rapture would rule out any sort of balancing.

brainout | 30 Aug 2015, 03:51

We can't predict the Rapture. It's based on Church-Body maturation, Eph 4:12-13. So if it happens to be (which God foreknows) of the same duration as Jewish time, so what? Could be, might not be. Common Jewish position is Messiah's time lasts 2000 years. But Bible doesn't say anything about a Messianic dispensation that I can find.

The only thing is, Paul newly benchmarks a 490 at Christ's birth. So the 1050's would have to be accounted that way too, although not solely that way. David had six time grants, none of which started with his birth, but all of which play to when he was crowned at Hebron, then over all Israel, then when he died. So there are 490s keyed to those dates, and so too, 1000's. His own Hebron crowning occurs on the 1050th anniversary of when Abram became AbRAHam.

So what are the benchmarks for Christ? I'm not sure. I plotted all this 10 years ago (before I knew of the Hebrew/Greek meter) in GeneYrs.xls. If you see a mistake, let me know?

Anonynomenon | 30 Aug 2015, 04:34

If Paul was tagging Christ's birth, was he indicating the start of a new 2100? Can one dispensation coexist within another dispensation?

brainout | 30 Aug 2015, 05:02

Yeah, a new 1050, anyway; that's why there is a Rapture, the last Jewish 1050 didn't end. Underlying math is here. The math I knew before I knew the meter, and the spreadsheet maps the math; some of those videos predate the meter, most are after it. The meter uses the math. The videos help you orient to the math, but it's a lot to slog through, sorry! Took me six years to even understand, lol.

CAUTION: I know there are mistakes somewhere. There have to be. I've just not found them yet. If you see any, please let me know.

Paul's reset of the meter to Christ's birth post-Cross is complicated to explain, I did several video series on it, but you'll die from watching them -- they make me barf, anyway. Just use the spreadsheet: it ASSumes that the new 490 began at Christ's death, but Paul retroactively dates it to His Birth.. if I'm reading Paul right. So the spreadsheet's AD end points are 30 years later than Paul uses. I have yet to correct that.

Still not satisfied that I'm reading it right. Nothing of what I've shown, is 100% certain. This research is in a first-pass stage, needs a LOT more testing (including the spreadsheet). The only certainty is that YES there is a pattern based on 490+70+490=1050 x 2 = 2100.

Anonynomenon | 30 Aug 2015, 14:33

Ok. Im a little confused now. You're saying that Paul was tagging Jesus' birth as the start of a new 490, when Israel was still in its last 490 according to Daniel. Was this new 490 supposed to overlap the last 33 years of Daniel's 490? It can't pertain to the Church, since that didnt start for another 33 years.

Or does Paul's 490 take effect after the 70 weeks are up? In that case, Paul was tagging Millennial time.

brainout | 30 Aug 2015, 20:42

Yeah, you're hitting squarely on the issue. YES Christ was born during the last 490, see '4103' in the spreadsheet. It was a scheduled thing. Long prior, Moses listing the countdown from Genesis 1 meter forward, the Mill was supposed to begin 4200 after Adam's fall, the idea being that by then 2100 years for the goyim then 2100 for the Jews would have elapsed.. including, Messiah's lifetime. His lifetime was supposed to be 40 years. Added to that, was the repayment for Abraham maturing early, 53.5 years. So, 4200-93.5 would mean an initially planned birth of 4106. But then came David, and he died age 77 (1Kings 6:1 tells you that if you do the math from 1Kings 2:39), and then Solomon didn't start the Temple until 3.5 years later (ibid). So now 53.5+3.5, or 57. So now Messiah has to be born 3.5 years earlier, Chanukah 4103 (Haggai 2 witty prediction, 357 years before 24 Chislev at sundown would be known as Chanukah).

So now, 4200-53.5-3.5-40=4103 birth, so then He should have died 40 years later=endpoint in Daniel 9, 586BC+70+70+483=37 AD. But, He was rejected so died 7 years earlier, hence two sevens, not one, remain.

Paul's Eph1:3-14 meter addresses all this. How to make up for the 'credit remaining' on Israel's time, since due to Him begin rejected, Church had to be inserted (see also the prior Romans 9-11). Paul's meter ties also to Daniel 9, 434 syllables (62 weeks) which leaves 56 in ellipsis at the end, same as his dateline of 56 (first sevened paragraph), playing on Mary's ending 56 in her meter of the Magnificat, 56 being the sevened equivalent of that 57. The full explanation is bigger, but I'm trying to simplify it.

So in order for that to balance, Paul has to be retroactively dating the 490 from Christ's BIRTH. But the COVENANT is not tied to a beginning of a 490, even as Abraham matured 2046 from Adam's Fall, not evenly at 2100. So, yeah there is an overlap, and that's been known (in other ways) in theology for a long time: that the 40-year period starting at Pentecost 30 AD, was still part of the 'age of Israel' as modern Dispies would term it, as well as the start of the 'Age of Church'.

It's this overlap, which preoccupies the writers' meter in the NT. They were plotting it out, just as Mary was. For look:

If there's a 53.5 credit owed the goyim on Jewish time, then DURING Jewish time, that credit has to play. For JEWISH time started 53.5 years early, owing to Abraham maturing 490 years after Noah got his 490.. so time could continue. So now how does the overlap get paid? That's why Mary ends the Magnificat with Abraham, cleverly ending her meter at Christ's Age 56. Why? That's 16 years after He was scheduled to die. Yeah, but He was scheduled to die 57 years before the Mill was to begin. So like all the OT writers, she's doing an equidistant pun. Sample of that punning style is partly shown here, but I'm not yet done with the piece. It might be more easily seen in LukeDatelineMeters.pdf or doc or htm (latter two require Bibleworks fonts to read the Greek).

So look: He really dies 64 years prior to the Scheduled Mill. So everyone wondered how that extra 7 years would be made up (and it is, we know with hindsight, during 64-70AD). So the writers were working that accounting into their Chapter 1 meters just as the OT writers did, just as Mary did, as a kind of spiritual/prophetical GPS (here's where we are on the old Jewish TimeMap, even though we are Church and Rapture can't be predicted). Because the Rapture's varying possible balancing deadlines were still of doctrinal value. So Paul charted them.

Notice it's a WHAT IF the Rapture happened charting, which he continues throughout the meter until it ends '62 weeks' later in a Groundhog day: showing that AT ANY TIME the Rapture can happen, starting with balancing to the Abrahamic credit. And, by the way, if the Rapture doesn't occur, here's a satire on what happens in Church during those specific years. Really biting satire. So biting, I had to do a video series explaining that doc, so folks could test the data first hand.

What creeps me out, is that Peter turned that passage into a marching song at the start of the 'Year of the Four Emperors', interpersing his text with the Pauline text. I've not worked out all the cadences, but enough is shown so you can see interleaved cadence is intended. Jude then patterns off Peter, then Mark upon Jude and Luke, and then the Writer of Hebrews on the foregoing, all within 12 months.

So there will be errors, can't be wholly right. Yet, the basic design of the meter is also certain, once you crunch the numbers from Genesis through Rev.

Anonynomenon | 30 Aug 2015, 23:55

Um, wow. I'll have to re-read that a few times before I can begin to grasp that.

But what if Paul was tagging a new dispensational age at Christ's birth, like the Age of the Living Temple. I doubt those 33 years before the Church had any Millennial quality, and we know as you said that the Church began with Pentecost, however the common factor between the birth of Christ and the Church is that they are both the Temple. Jesus was born on Chanukah and Paul said that we are being fitted together as the Temple. Where exactly (chapter and verse) did Paul tag Jesus' birth? Was he talking about the Temple?

This goes back to Joel and Acts. If the Church was never opened, would Israel have been called the temple? We know the stone temple was destined for destruction so what would take its place in that situation?

brainout | 31 Aug 2015, 00:42

Yeah, well my pastor had classified (and he wasn't the only guy) Christ's Lifetime as a separate Dispensation. That's distinct from the 490, which he didn't know about, and the covenants, actually. A dispensation is the time period over which a particular covenant, spans. So my pastor inter alia, was thinking there was a special short dispensation for His Lifetime, after which comes Church, but the Age of Israel still overlaps for that last 40 years. The last clause is a commonly held one. Bible seems slightly different from all of them.

Problem is, I can't find yet if Paul's doing that, accounting Christ's Life as a separate dispensation. Maybe he is. I just don't know. All this is original stuff based on the SOURCE TEXT so there is a ton of testing to do, of the results.

As for what was to happen absent Church, that we know: 2100 years for the Jews, and then Mill begins. So had Israel accepted Him, He would have died on time at age 40 seven years later, then the 'times of the Gentiles' of 50 then 7, then Mill. Of the 7, half belonged to the Jews, 'time of Jacob's trouble' as well. So the 7 is split. For the Temple was 3.5 years late in starting, so it was Jewish time in effect given to the Gentiles, so now reversed in the credit.

That's not how you meant 'Temple', but that's the accounting in the OT, all based on Time. There was no Temple=Body of Christ promise to Israel. She was promised Bride, but playing Vashti, refused to come when He came and called. But just as Vashti was never divorced, so Israel will still be Queen of the Nations during the Mill (to use Jewish terminology).

Anonynomenon | 31 Aug 2015, 01:27

You must be talking about hupostasis. Clarence Larkin wrote about that in his book The Dispensational Truth. I've been of the opinion lately that we are currently still in hupostasis. No, Christ is not here in the flesh, but we are His body and in Him we are the Temple. Daniel 9 says that the Messiah must be cut off AFTER the 62 weeks, but you're saying He died 7 years beforehand. Well, it's well after the 62 weeks, and we are still here until the rapture. That must mean that we are still in a hupostatic state. I'm not saying that we are God in the flesh like Christ, but we represent Him here in a way that no priest has ever been able to. Daniel 9 called for hupostasis, and Israel's rejection of Christ called for an extension of hupostasis else Daniel 9 would be violated, hence the Church.

As a result, since Jesus died at 33 rather than 40, the quality of hupostasis was expanded from individual to collective.

brainout | 31 Aug 2015, 02:01

Now, I don't know what Larkin said, I only know what Bible says, so if you want to go into more detail, please use Scripture?

Using Scripture: Hupostasis is His Nature being God-Man, Daniel 7:13. It's a keyword, Psalm 40:6 quoted in Hebrews 1:3, 3:14, explained in 10:5, quoted again as a nickname for Him in Heb 11:1 (metered) versus the covenant applying during a period of time="dispensation". So in Bible, the term represents His Nature.

Yes, Messiah was to be cut off at the end of 62 weeks, but instead died at the end of the 61st week, successful, so still on time. And that's why there is Church, as a TIME BRIDGE back. Paul documented it all in Ephesians, yes we represent Him as Body, 2 Cor 5:20 inter alia. But it's another legal term for BRIDE. Yes, we get the same spiritual life He had, and will have a body like His at death, 1John 2:26-3:2, Ephesians 5. Nothing mystical about it. So if you're calling that 'union' hupostasis in a figurative sense, okay -- but the term in Bible and theology technically only refers to His Nature.

Daniel 9 didn't call for hupostasis, it's a Greek term and Daniel wrote that chapter in Hebrew. It was always forecast that Messiah would be God taking on Human Nature, ever since Adam, Gen 3:15. But the term hupostasis is born much later, and means one nature standing under another one (hupo under, stasis standing).

Now, maybe you mean something else and I'm misreading you?

Anonynomenon | 31 Aug 2015, 02:50

I meant it in a figurative sense, but it was probably a misuse of the word. Larkin didn't say much about hypostatic union other than identifying it as its own dispensation.

My concern is that Daniel 9:26 doesn't say that the Messiah is to be cut off BY the 62nd week but AFTER (we'achera) the 62nd week was over. If Jesus was killed 7 years early, that sounds like a Satanic attempt to violate Daniel 9:26. With the Church still here, we are His body/representatives, He is in union with us on a Spiritual level. I see that as the Messiah still being here AFTER the 62 weeks until the Rapture.

I see it as a legal loop hole.

brainout | 31 Aug 2015, 03:03

No, it's at the end of; after in the sense of expiry of a SCHEDULE, not a law. Yeah, and sure Satan tried to end it early, but Matthew 16:18, Christ unilaterally contracts to make Church AFTER His Death, per Father's Discretion, John 17:20ff.

Yeah, a loophole. For there was to then follow 50 for the Gentiles, then 7 for the Trib anyhow, then Mill. But the 50 gets elongated by Matt16:18, NEW COVENANT to pay for NEW PEOPLE, namely 'whoever believes in their word', John 17:20ff. So the untold billions of new sins Christ must agree to pay for in advance, only He can authorize. Then Father determines how MANY. So not a time deadline, but a new bodies criterion.

So in modern terms, it's a way to avoid Mistrial. New covenant of promised future BODIES, which if Satan can defeat fulfillment, God loses and Satan wins. For bodies have to be born, have to be saved, have to mature.. the meanwhile, the Sword of Damocles Time Rule of someone needing to supermature by every 490 else Time Ends, continues to favor Satan in the Trial. Couldn't be more dramatic. Couldn't be harder to accept or believe. 🙀

I tried to cover that issue beginning here, and then trying to ferret out the MisTrial issues, here and here. Search on 'Mistrial' (with or without caps). Too much reading, but I was thinking out loud. You're already thinking in that vein, so you don't need to read it.

brainout | 11 Sep 2015, 10:47

In Text Crit forum I started a thread on Daniel 9, since its focus is meter, which is a function of whether we have the right words. It demonstrates how Daniel 9 is the raison d'etre for Pre-Trib Rapture. It's an ACCOUNTING issue: Israel had seven more years due than could be played during her time, because Messiah died seven years early. So-called 'Christian scholarship' is so bad with the math in Daniel 9, this extra seven years gets misaccounted century after century. Waste of man hours, money, angst. For it's just a simple problem of time allotted which did not play. Provable. Mathematical.

So if you want, you can debate that thread's contents, here or there.

brainout | 25 Sep 2016, 15:28

From thread started here: https://twitter.com/~/status/779941379178889216

Upshot was we went in circles, when Dan12:11-12 were clear all along. So here, am reconstructing. If one had time, it would be fairly easy to turn this into a realistic, Biblical movie or novel.

But for now, just the timeline...

Day 1 Rapture/Trib Question is what day that is, whether a Jewish holiday to alert Jews/converts. The Two Witnesses appear in Temple grounds, keeping everyone away. Presumably they explain. If memory serves there is also some pair of angels flying at noon in every time zone, right now I forget where that is in Rev.

Day 1095.75 (so Day 1096 at noon) Three Trib years have elapsed. Revelation 9 opens, Satan gets key to Abyss, 200 million DEMON ARMY then punishes all the unbelievers for the next 150 (or 155, if Elul in there) days.

1461 days remain to End Trib.

Day 1185 Folks who miscalculate the exit window 1335 in Daniel 12:12 using lunar years (2520 days in 7 lunar years) will mistakenly think the window opens first, here. So they will try to leave. It might be rough going.

1371.75 days remain to End Trib.

Day 1221.75 (so day 1222 at noon) Exit window for the end of the FLIGHT phase opens. It will last until the Abomination is set up on Day 1266.75. (Count backwards from 2556.75 to each of the two numbers in Dan 12:11-12 to get these values, remember Hebrew day starts piggybacked on day before, at sundown.)

1335 days remain to End Trib.

Day 1230 Jews who miscalculate using lunar years but otherwise 'get it' that the 1290 is to be counted BACKWARDS from the end of the 7 years, will think their exit window ends here. So they still get out. Problem is, if any remain afterwards, they will think they cannot get out, though they still can.

1326.75 days remain to End Trib.

Day 1245.75 or 1250.75 The five-month Rev 9 Demon torture of unbelievers ENDS. Now they are no longer restricted.

1311 or 1306 days remain to End Trib.

Day 1260 Two Witnesses are killed by Abaddon leader of those demons (Satan? Rev 9 sounds like it's someone else who was chained up with the others.) Earth must see this on TV or something, cuz the celebration is worldwide.

1296.75 days remain to End Trib.

Day 1261.75 Some kind of Jewish holiday? On which, what happens?

1295 days remain to End Trib.

Day 1263.5 (so around dawn on 1264th day), Two Witnesses resuscitated, astonish and anger world, God calls them to come up. World sees, is ticked off. They go up, big earthquake.

1293.25 days remain to End Trib.

Day 1266.75, So noon 6 days after their death, despite whatever is the earthquake damage, Abominating Talking Statue is flown in (or arrives some other way, likely flamboyant), to be put in the Holy of Holies.

• THIS 1266.75 IS THE LAST EXIT DAY, END OF THE FLIGHT PHASE. Get caught in Jerusalem after noon, and you can't get out. So you stay to fight, awaiting that general Thieme talked about (Zech 12:6, mistranslated, Hebrew is et-aluph 🤠).

1290 days remain to end Trib.

Day 1275.75 or 1280.75 Rev 11:2's 42 months must include the long months; so instead of 1260, 42 months ends at 1275.75 or 1280.75, if one of the remainder 6 months includes Elul. Does a holiday occur here?

1281 or 1276 days remain to end Trib.

Day 1278.375 Exact Trib midpoint on solar calendar.

1278.375 days remain to end Trib.

Day 1280.75 Is this a Jewish holiday of some kind?

1276 days remain to end Trib.
Perhaps Rev 11:2's 42 months occurs here, not in first 3.5 years;
instead of 1260, 42 months ends at 1275.

Day 1295 Some kind of Jewish Holiday? On which, what happens?

1261.75 days remain to end Trib.

Again, this is only the bare bones timeline. Feel free to amend, add, complete, etc. Anony's goal was to see what Holidays bookend it at start and 1295. But Daniel 12:11-12 are pretty unequivocal about the Abomination entrance date, so at least that's likely resolved.

What's creeping me out, is that this story is starting to write itself. It makes so much sense to me now. I used to hate prophecy with a passion. But after seeing how DT is, how goofball and WILLFULLY BLIND his adherents, all bets are off: can't deny this stuff plausibility, anymore.

Something about facing prophecy makes the reality of God and His Word so palpable, it hurts and I want to faint. It's hard to type.

I did a very early and poor version of this back 15 years ago, SatSpin.htm

A better more technical piece but still (like everything) in need of massive edit, is RevPlay.htm. It has an outline doc in it which is sometimes helpful. My memory of Rev was much better then too.

Anonynomenon | 25 Sep 2016, 19:26

What if the Two Witnesses die after the Abomination has already been in the Temple for 30 days? 1290-1260=30

After the Beast's intro in Rev 13:1-5, he blasphemes the tabernacle (first), then makes war with saints (starting w/ Two Witnesses).

The Beast's 42 months could actually be 1275 days if you factor in the long months. So perhaps the first 15 days of Beast's 42 months are nested in last 15 days of Two Witnesses' 1260.

1245+(15)+1260

So going with my idea of 35 days calm before Two Witnesses minister:

35+1245+(15)+1260

This way, Two Witnesses die 1295 days into Tribulation, 30 days after Abomination is set up (1290 days before Second Advent). Depending on Tribulation start date, this would make the death of Two Witnesses relevant to Maccabean Chanuka or end of Unleavened Bread, leading into Feast of Weeks.

brainout | 26 Sep 2016, 01:58

No, the Abomination is put into the Temple after they are dead, see Rev13.

Anonynomenon | 26 Sep 2016, 02:37

Yeah, I see what you mean now.

I'm still concerned about how the Feasts might have a part in the Tribulation. After all, Talmud says Millennium starts with Yom Teruah. That makes perfect sense if Yom Teruah is the Rosh Hashanah (being the start of Adamic year). Since Millennium was scheduled to happen 4200 solar years post Fall of Adam, it would only be logical that the Millennium starts on Rosh Hashanah.

So if (maybe/maybe not) the Rosh Hashanah Theory for the Original Schedule is correct, then Daniel 12 must have been crafted to fit Rosh Hashanah.

brainout | 26 Sep 2016, 03:21

Well, you blow the shofar for other holidays, too.. I forget which ones. Yom Kippur? Passover? Booths?

Anonynomenon | 26 Sep 2016, 03:29

Ok, So for the moment, I am focusing on the Talmudic Rosh Hashanah Theory, since it does relate to 4200 schedule. My assumption is that Dan 12 is crafted to fit Rosh Hashanah.

So Rosh Hashanah/Feast of Trumpets/Yom Teruah, on the Bible's solar calendar is the Autumnal Equinox. Usually Sept 22.

Day of Sept 22 -1335 days= Jan 25th. This is the day that Jesus was presented in the Jerusalem Temple (Luke 2:21-33). Jesus was born on Dec 24/25th +8 Days for circumcision +33 more days for purification= Jan 25th.

It seems important, but it cant really be tied to the Abomination, which would logically come 45 days later.

If we instead calculate Sept 22 -1290= Mar 10th or Adar 20th. I don't know if Adar 20 is significant.

brainout | 26 Sep 2016, 03:31

Another thing: 1295 - 365.25x3 leaves 199.25. Were it 185 or 180, you'd have an equinox. So if Rapture started 199.25- one of those prior, wouldn't you hit an equinox? OR.. Passover? OR.. Booths

Or updated.. Chanukah? Surely they blew the shofar for that.

And be sure to match even character. For example, the big mistake Dispies make, is to call Daniel 9:26 'fulfilled' at Palm Sunday. NO. Text says clearly Messiah is CUT OFF, so DEATH is the event, and the hanging chad 7 they explain away by using lunar year calcs. SLOPPY SCHOLARSHIP and you can't balance your checkbook that way, either.

So BIRTH to BIRTH. DEATH to DEATH. CROWNING to CROWNING (except when BORN king, so then crowning and birth align).

There's no parallel between Mill and circumcision.

Anonynomenon | 26 Sep 2016, 03:36

Here is a good one. If Talmudic Jews are looking for Messiah on Rosh Hashanah, then a Passover Rapture would be deadly.

April 4 -1290 days= Sept 22 aka Rosh Hashanah. In this case, the Abomination would be standing on the Feast of Trumpets when Jews would be looking for Messiah. The Beast could use this to call himself messiah, but first, Jews would have to get their calendar right.

brainout | 26 Sep 2016, 03:53

Well, Satan's even more cheeky than Trump, could CORRECT the calendar to make his propaganda, even as he CORRECTED the woman after she added the 'touch it' fake criterion.

So look (going back to your 1295):

1. Pretend Rapture actually happens on vernal equinox.
2. 14 days after that, Passover Begins. By then, Satan&Co. have announced correct cal to the world, and they all scramble to celebrate passover. We're all Jews now. That marginalizes those real believers who can SEE it's Satan&Co. ruse (i.e., the 144K).
3. Three years later, on anniversary, it's now 1095.75+14=1109.75. Demon boys are still persecuting real unbelievers who if we all are Jews, are pegged unfaithful Jews. Like Donald Sutherland at end of Invasion of Body Snatchers.
4. Real Day 1221.75 still occurs, so exit window opens. But now it's (get this) 112 days later. So Pentecost+56, 9th Av.
5. 45 days later, after the 2Witnesses dead and risen, Abom flown in. It's the 24th of Elul. Elizabeth conceived on 25 Elul, maybe at sundown prior. HERALD. Statue as HERALD like John the Baptist. For they never pretend it's Christ. Satan would know what even a brainout could learn from Luke 1:26-36, that Elizabeth conceived 25 Elul.
6. 11 days later is Rosh HaShanah, and your count is now 1277.75.
7. 10 days later is Yom Kippur, and your count is 1287.75.
8. By 1295 you're in the middle of Booths.

Or, count back from some event you think ought to be a holiday.
Like, Abom flown in/set up. What holiday ought that to be? Chanukah seems most apt. Temple the Temple Depicts. Or, even better for the HERALD value and propaganda: Pentecost.

Count back 70 days, it's vernal equinox. 100 days prior, the 3rd anniversary of Rapture, for 1266.75 is 1095.75 (3 years' elapse) +171.

Gives new meaning to 'the first 100 days'.
Of course, you're using Rosh HaShanah as the Abom setup, which then 171 days prior was Passover, which is then exactly 3 years from a putative Rapture date on the real calendar. And that's pretty powerful.

But think: Christ rose 3.5 days later. So why not use FirstFruits?

Point is, there are many ways you can fit to important dates that can be used. Trying to figure out exactly which way WILL occur, will make you old and gray and frustrated.

Anonynomenon | 26 Sep 2016, 04:03

Do you think Dan 7:25 means that he will try to change the calendar? Or maybe not the dates, but the meaning of the Feasts?

brainout | 26 Sep 2016, 04:12

Both of the above, but better if he uses the real calendar, since God will. Makes it harder for the real believers to say no. None of that stops him from pulling a Nero by renaming months, adding holidays, etc.

In the example above, he could say hitting the middle of Booths was to mean Christ Risen 3.5 days later (when the midpoint hit), so now Harvesting has a new midpoint holiday.. right?

Anonynomenon | 26 Sep 2016, 04:16

That's true, but at least we know that Dan 12 works with some Feast Dates, especially Passover. So maybe Feasts are more than just poetic.

brainout | 26 Sep 2016, 04:20

Oh sure the feasts are more than poetic. They depict trends of history. David knew that, hence the 1Chron24 priestly course names are all prophetic of history. I could only quickly demonstrate that in HebCal.htm. (It's also in PassPlot.htm).

Israel's enemies have long used the Feast days to attack her: final assault on 2nd Temple, began ON Passover. And let's not forget Yom Kippur War.

And if you really wanna get creepy, 2667 FAF is divisible evenly by 3 AND 7. So if God made Passover Month a new year, then our counting it by math as 2666 would equate to the start of 2667.

2667-1267 (solar day Abom set up)=1400, year Moses began writing Torah.

Anonynomenon | 26 Sep 2016, 05:56

Why so many crazy "coincidences" like this? Is it Satan messing with the BC/AD system? I've seen so many things like this in the past 4 years that its almost frustrating.

brainout | 26 Sep 2016, 06:10

Well, first there are many important events in Israel's and world history to reconcile or connect. So there should be a lot of weirdness like this. Problem is more to decide if you connect the RIGHT events the seeming 'coincidence' or 'revelation' signifies. That's why matching event character matters so much.

Here in the example, the writing of Torah begins 40 years after the Exodus (really at start of year 41), and technically doesn't match Exodus itself. But Moses is the key guy in both. So I can just see Satan, who wanted Moses' body anyway (per Jude), mouthing some connection to him, even if not quite apt.

brainout | 26 Sep 2016, 08:14

I just realized it's also deadly in reverse. As in, they read the 1290 as START rather than backwards count from end...

So statue really goes up 1266.75 as Daniel 12:11 actually says. BUT at that point there do remain 1290 days, so voila!

• CALL it the 1290th day and announce the Mill is HERE! After all, that's what the text says, right? (Wrong: but since 1290 is in the text, and most people won't READ, the text is effectively masked.)

Then

• CALL most blessed, those 45 days prior to the now-totally-obfuscated real Rapture date (which was 1266.75 days prior, but now that 1290 is accepted, why not 1335)!

Aha,

• so now that the actual Rapture Date count is advertised as occurring 75 days EARLIER than it occurred (like Catholics say Good Friday to Sunday is three days and nights) -- AHA, now a) anyone disputing that (i.e., based on real knowledge of Bible and competence), can be rounded up and jailed/killed; b) can be silenced in fear, so the truth is masked.

It's not like we don't see the same thing happening daily, in and outside of Christendom.

So notice, if the Statue IS INDEED put in Temple ON RoshHaShana and the demon boys want to CLAIM Rapture started on Passover (even though they are counting the wrong way)...

RHS - Passover is 194 days (solely if counted from RHS to Pesach, not the reverse) Add 1095.75 and you get a way to see how that Statue is put in HOH on RHS, on the newly-minted claim that it's really 1290!

So now, all those people who correctly calculated the exit window and left, are confused. For if the Rapture really did occur on Passover and they left by 1266.75th day, they will think they left AT THE WRONG TIME. So now they will start to doubt what time it is, and think they should have stayed, and might then seek to come BACK to FIGHT.

Note well: The holiday picked to do this back-count obfuscation, does not have to be RHS. It only has to be any famous Jewish holiday where the numbers 'fit' to make the claim. So of course they could put it up ON Passover, claim the Rapture occurred on RHS, even though it didn't!

This is so realistic, I'm shaking.

Anonynomenon | 08 Oct 2016, 05:36

I found another deadly one. My original theory placed the Abomination on Passover so that the False Prophet could present himself as a lamb (Rev 13:11). This blasphemy would then be thrown back in his face when the Two Witnesses would be resuscitated 3.5 days later (Rev 11:9) to kind of mirror the death and resurrection of our Lord. The Two Witnesses resuscitated rather than resurrected to show that they are servants of the Lord.

The problem with my original theory was that I was placing Rosh Hashanah on Sept 16th and using 35+1260+1260 for the Tribulation. Now with the dates adjusted, there is a different picture painted.

So here it is:

Rosh Hashanah + 15 days= Sukkot +8 days = Shemini 'Atzeret (8th day celebration)

So, Shemini 'Atzeret would fall on Oct 14th. If we subtract 1290 days from Oct 14th, we get Passover Day (Apr 3rd). This scenario would place a 6.75 day hiatus prior to the 1260 days of Two Witnesses' ministry which could work with Rev 7:1 (especially if the Two Witnesses are really part of the 144K?). Hence, the Tribulation would be 1267+1290 days to fill 7 solar years.

This scenario would be deadly for people drooling over the Abomination, but would also deal a humiliating blow to the Beast and False Prophet. Therefore anybody paying close attention would suddenly realize what is happening.

brainout | 08 Oct 2016, 13:58

Okay, but where is the confirming Scripture? You'd need wordplay on the holidays (and I'm not saying there is none), plus that extra seven isn't shown in Daniel 12, so where do we see it?

Point here, is that we've all come up with several timelines but 'there can only be one'. So where's our Highlander?

Anonynomenon | 11 Oct 2016, 05:00

Still trying to figure out exactly when the Two Witnesses start their ministry. I kinda feel like there should be a hiatus of some kind before the first 1260 days, per Rev 7:3...

But for the time being, I noticed something else.

The woman flees to the wilderness, so this must be the 2nd half of Trib. So here it looks like the 1260 days of nourishment is counting back from Second Advent (like Daniel 12).

Since early escape window opens at 1335 days till Mill, 1335-1260=75. So that confirms there are a total of 75 days to escape: 45 days Pre-Abomination and 30 days Post-Abomination.

So now the question; Is the first half of Trib a mirror image of the second half? 1260+36.75+1260. That would be very symmetrical, but is it correct?

Also:

I don't know if there is phonetic word play involved, but what about this:

What if it is hinting at Passover?

1. Foreigners could be coming to Jerusalem to celebrate a Feast.
2. Same city where our Lord died. Again, on Passover.
3. Two Witnesses rise 3.5 days later.

brainout | 11 Oct 2016, 11:18

Oh yeah. Window 1221.75-1266.75 can be also seen as 1260+36.75+1260, in same idea as 147 can be 70+77 but also 84+63. The different packagings can reference different but overlaying timelines. Just as, 365 days, but you can instead denote the same period as 12 mos or 52 weeks.

For crops, the monthly denomination would maybe be most important to follow. For your Daytimers, maybe 52 weeks.

So different purposes, as well maybe as different events, can warrant denominational differences overlaying the same seven years.

So if you wanted one of the denominational subdivisions to 'tag' the holidays, like you were doing with Passover and Yom Teruah...

So look: 1221.75 early window start 'within' 1st 1260. At 1230, the demon boys' five months are up, and at 1260 the Two Witnesses killed, then 1263.5 they resurrect or resuscitate (I forget which), then earthquake, and during the next 3 days, last chance!, thus closing 1266.75 (day 1267 at noon). Statue then in, and of that 36.75, only 30 remains. Then Rev 12 running to wilderness for presumably those not around Jerusalem (maybe the other window, but the 45 would be subsumed?), and then 1260.

It's awful precise, so I'd not be 😱 if it were also keyed to the holidays, but you'd have to know them, as I'm sure the authorities will 'change the times and seasons' to prevent accurate daily accounting.

Anonynomenon | 11 Oct 2016, 17:46

Heres what creeps me out with the Passover scenario with Two Witnesses.

If 1260 days starts after a 6-7 day hiatus, then Trib starts and end on day after Booths week.

But if 1260 starts immediately and ends on Passover, then Trib starts/ends on Oct 22.

October 22 keeps coming up in my various calculations, but the scary thing is that William Miller's failed prediction (1800s) stated that Christ would return on Oct 22....and he was using a Lunar calendar. That's just weird.

brainout | 13 Oct 2016, 02:02

So 10/22 is equivalent to 1 Bul. I think I remember the mene mene tekel upharsin date being 10 Bul, per ISBE? I'll go look it up, but that means a reference to Daniel 5, which then has to be tested for its dateline (groan). How can we get exact date? I've never done that in OT. John does exact dates in at least one of his books.

I can't find the 10 Bul I found years ago in Bibleworks' ISBE, but found something close, here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Babylon#Invasion Search on Marchesvan. The source of the date is apparently the Babylonian record.

brainout | 09 Nov 2015, 01:41

Really need a thread on the sequence. What follows below I typed as a comment, here (video has since been removed). Video should be titled 'Mark of the Beast' with Craig Schaeffer and Eric Roberts, and is viewable in frankforum, here. But you can ignore my comment, just come up with what you think the sequence is, BACKED UP BY Bible verses. For surely the Rapture movies are bad, and need better information, for all we know the Rapture can happen now or 1000 years from now. Folks will need to know ideas on how to read the sequence, once it happens.

This sequence comes from reading the Greek after hearing Thieme teach Rev line by line for four years. I have all the tapes in multiple sets (reels, maybe some cassettes).

Anonynomenon | 09 Nov 2015, 02:53

My parsing of the Tribulation is as follows:

1. Seals are the Grand Summary: Cliff Notes of the Angelic Conflict (Thanks to RBT's spiritual gift).
2. Trumpet Judgements are for the 1,295 days: Before Abomination of Desolation.
3. Vial Judgements are for the last 1,260 days: After Abomination of Desolation.

Based on my interpretation of the Wedding Feast in relation to the Darkness Outside;

• 144K are saved/sealed first, as God's servants (Rev 7:3).
• 144K invite the world to the Wedding Feast but world rejects invitation (Rev 9:20-21).
• After mid-point, the 144K extend a second invitation (on God's behalf) and are martyred for it. This time many are saved, and many still refuse (unto death). See Rev 11:11 & Rev 14:1-7.
• Then Jesus returns on an 'unknown day and hour'.

We have 2,556.75 days (7 Solar Years) of Tribulation to account for here. My opinion is as follows:

• The 144K are sealed in first 35 days.
• 1st wedding invitation is sent in the first 1,260 days. >Day 1 of first 1,260: Flying angel gives the "three woes " warning. Then the Fifth Trumpet announces the advent of Apollyon.
• 2nd wedding invitation is sent piggybacking the Abomination of Desolation for the duration of the final 1,260 days.
• Jesus' early return (early by a matter of hours), makes room for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, before the 70th Week completely ends, and the Millennium begins.

brainout | 11 Nov 2015, 07:14

Okay, where are you getting 35 days? The difference between 1295 and 1260? At the end of the Daniel series, Lesson 45 I think it was, Thieme was playing with the Daniel 12 numbers of 1335 and 1290. Are you factoring that in?

There's an overlap, yes, but it might be at mid-Trib -- due to the earthquake, as a result of which the statue is flown in/made? -- and the 144K sealed/saved might actually be saved much more rapidly or maybe more slowly, but theoretically it's a prediction that they will be saved at the beginning, so they can have a ministry. Else I don't see where the 35 days comes from? Do you feel like elaborating?

Anonynomenon | 11 Nov 2015, 15:53

Right now my outer darkness theory is my strongest support:

35+1260+1260 days = 7 Solar years (take up to a day for the Second Advent and Wedding Feast).

I'll try to elaborate more later.

35 days for announcement of the Wedding Feast to come.
1260 days for 1st invite
1260 days for 2nd invite
Overlapping 1335 days is for early-bird exit.

Now that I think about it, I'm leaning towards the Sealing of the 144K being limited to the first 7 days of the 35 days. This would be the short time that the 4 winds are held back for the sake of Sealing the 144K. Then immediately, the first 5 trumpets are blown every 7 days. Thats just my assuption for now. I feel that the equidistant intervals makes the most sense.

Four Trumpets blast every 7 days (chronologically) after the 144K are Sealed, then the flying angel announces the "3 woes". The 5th trumpet would then start the first 1,260 days.

So the first four Trumpets are to gain the world's attention to announces the coming Wedding Feast.
The 5th Trumpet kicks off the first 1,260 days while the 144K extend the first invite.
The Abomination of Desolation kicks off the second 1,260 days and the second invite.
The Trumpets 5 and 6 are 2 of the 3 Woes, so they are separate from the first 4 Trumpets.

Anonynomenon | 12 Nov 2015, 02:37

I hadn't noticed this before, but in the Parable of the Wedding Feast in Matt 22, two separate gropus of slaves are sent out by the King to invite guests.

In Revelation, we see two groups of people sent to witness on two separate occasions.

In the first 1,260 days, its the Two Witnesses. When they are killed by Apollyon, the torch is then passed down to the 144K for the second 1,260 days period.

We know that the 144K must be sealed before any harm comes to the earth, so this must be done before the Trumpets are even blown, but they'll need time to grow/take in doctrine, therefore the Two Witnesses (I suppose Moses and Elijah) are sent to proclaim the gospel as the 144K mature.

brainout | 12 Nov 2015, 08:30

Wow, you always bring up such good points. While reading this post of yours, immediately I was reminded of how Noah sent up the raven and then the dove, and more than once.

So yeah, more than one group.

As to the 144K, they are coterminous with the Two Witnesses, if we call those two groups. But I'm not getting the connection to maturation. It's OT style, so why wouldn't God just communicate right away, and they are also maturing during that time?

They don't have to be mature to repeat what He says, even Balaam could do that. How many times have we known God was using us to 'say' something and we didn't even understand its import until later? God even used an ass (Balaam's) to communicate, so it's not necessary to be even human, for God to communicate through you; so not necessary to be mature, either.

Anonynomenon | 12 Nov 2015, 16:26

Do you remember how shy Moses was when God first asked him to speak?

brainout | 12 Nov 2015, 16:32

Toucher. in the fencing sense.

Anonynomenon | 13 Nov 2015, 04:50

I decided to reply to the above here, as not to derail your other thread. I like to keep things organized.

We know that earth can't be harmed until 144K are saved (Rev 7:3), so they are believers for sure, but Rev 9:20 tells us that after the 5th and 6th Trumpets are blown, mankind still refuses to believe.

I'm looking at the Tribulation Sequence through the Matt 22 lense.

The Two Witnesses are given 1,260 days/42 months to minister (Rev 11:3). When we compare that to the Wedding Feast Parable of Matt 22, these are the first group of servants set out to call those who have been invited. They are ignored. Therefore in the first 42 months, no one believes.

The people who are alive on earth are the ones invited by the servants. So the ones left in the outer darkness (at least in Matt 22) are alive.

So here is my latest model for the Tribulation:

7+28+1,260+1,260+1= 7 Solar years
7 Days = Sealing of 144K
+
28 Days = Trumpets 1-4 (blown every 7 days to gain the attention of the world). Then the angel gives Three Woes in Rev 8:13.
+
1,260 Days = Two Witnesses start their ministry, marked by the advent of Apollyon (notice how Apollyon rises at the beginning of the Two Witnesses' ministry, and Apollyon ends it. Sometime within the first 42 months the 6th Trumpet is blown. No one believes.
+
1,260 Days = Apollyon kills Two Witnesses to mark the end of their ministry, and the 144K go out as the second set of servants (per Matt 22). This time, many are saved, and the 144K are mature enough to die in Christ. The Beast is given authority to harm believers for 42 months.
+
1 Day = Jesus returns to shorten the Tribulation for the sake of the elect. Just like in Matt 22, His return will mark the destruction of non-believers (who killed the servants). Then the Marriage Supper begins.

brainout | 13 Nov 2015, 07:29

Wow, that's a really different sequence. Never heard of it before. Need to think it over. How do you account for the Petra verses, Rev 12, if no one believes during the first 3.5? How do you account for Daniel 12, which is a warning about when there's an escape hatch during Mid Trib, to get out of Jerusalem, clearly intended for believers? How do you account for the Lord warning in Matt 24 about when you see the abomination, to get out? Those are all directed for believers during the first 3.5 years...

Anonynomenon | 13 Nov 2015, 17:15

Lol, you're absolutely right. I didn't think about Daniel's early exit. That absolutely debunks my theory. And that rules out Matt 22 as pertaining to the Tribulation since clearly there are people saved during the first 42 months.

This is why I love this forum, if you hadn't mentioned that, who knows how long I would have gone believing it.

I still think the 7+28+1,260+1,260 makes the most sense though, at least until I find something better.

brainout | 13 Nov 2015, 17:56

Well, not trying to debunk. Have you heard Thieme's exegesis of Rev, line by line? Took 4 years. You can get it on DVD or mp3. I have maybe three sets of the four-year series on reels. But I have class notes, so if you start listening and you want to talk about a specific class, let me know. Maybe should be another thread, if you want.

In those classes and you can see how from Scripture (but it takes some playing with the math in Daniel 11-12), the first 3.5 years are The Two Witnesses (killed at Trib midpoint by Apollyon in Rev 11), AND the angel flying (maybe only at Year 3), AND the 144K. So those are the 'signs', in addition to whatever Exodus-like plagues are imposed.

I don't get where you see the first 35 days to save/seal the 144K (though the number is interesting, doctrinally means half-vote, God's Vote, but I didn't test to see if those passages were metered).

Each Trumpet is its own period. Actual intervals aren't stated, but 5th Trumpet is Year 3, Rev 9, baldly in the text. Going by Rev 12-13, the third angel sounding in Rev 8:10 would also be Year 3. So that implies Year 1=Trumpet 1, and Year2=Trumpet 2.

What underscores that interp, is that every New Year the trumpet is blown, Rosh HaShanah. But the seventh is AT the Mid-Point, hence the seven vials. So now we've got the problem of accounting for why so many trumpets, 3rd-6th are all in Year 3.

Anonynomenon | 13 Nov 2015, 18:30

Yeah, I'm in the Rev series you're talking about now, but he goes off into so many political tangents that progress is pretty slow. Don't get me wrong, I always learn somthing new. I'm somewhere in Chapt 2 right now and I'm also alternating with his James 4 lessons.

Could you explain how the 5th Trumpet is in third year? I'm interested in knowing that. I just get the feeling that Apollyon marks the beginning and end of the first 42 months. Thats why I fixed the 5th Trumpet at day 36, (which would begin the first1,260 days.)

Also, my model has the 144K being sealed before any Trumpets are blown, so that limits it to the first 7 days of the 35 days before the first 1,260 days.

Basically:
7 days for 144K sealing
28 days for 4 Trumpets at equidistand intervals

Anonynomenon | 13 Nov 2015, 19:07

What I gather from Rev 12, is that Satan is the falling star in the 5th Trumpet who lets Apollyon loose. This lines up with the Three Woes after the 4th Trumpet.

Again I dont see where you get the third year from. I see the sign in heaven which predicts the Great Tribulation and the vision of Satan falling which summarizes the first 1,260 days.

brainout | 13 Nov 2015, 19:59

For the third year meaning, look at Rev 9 and read it through Chapter 13. Any translation will do. Think over the timing of the events as you read.v

As for Thieme's frequent meanderings in Rev series, yeah. I had been a taper prior but during those years was actually at the Church, and my notes are full of all the divergences. It was during Reagan so that's why. Thieme hadn't grown out of the politics bug yet. In 1992 Spiritual Dynamics, you see he has. Difference is shocking.

James 4 is just before 92SD, so you are probably seeing the transition now. I have a notebook for that, too, and all the classes. Really important series as a transition. 1991 Israel is part of it, too.

Anonynomenon | 13 Nov 2015, 20:59

One-third of mankind dying at the 6th Trumpet?
One-third of the stars falling from heaven?

Is that what you mean?

I don't think that indicates timing. My guess is that the 1/3 fallen stars are the 200 million demon army that are led by the four angels from the Euphrates bed. They fell with Satan when he released Apollyon. I know that's not how Thieme taught it, but thats how I connect the dots.

1/3 of angels killing 1/3 of mankind. Similar to believers replacing fallen angels.

brainout | 13 Nov 2015, 22:51

Rev 9 begins at Year 3. First five months, fifth angel's sounding, Satan comes doen, keys, then Tartarus release, Apollyon etc. Then the pause of Rev 10. Then Trib midpoint, killing of the Two Witnesses, everyone celebrates for three days, and then they rise, then a month in hiatus, presumably for the events of Rev 11, when the earthquake hits. Then the war in heaven, Rev 12, ending with Satan standing on the earth, Rev 13.

Anonynomenon | 13 Nov 2015, 23:23

Yeah, I understand the chronology, I just don't see the whole 3rd year thing. I feel like Apollyon's release begins the first 42 months.

And why a hiatus in the middle? Where is the indication for that?

brainout | 13 Nov 2015, 23:35

Okay, well let's look at the verses. There's no translation issue here, I don't think, so I used NASB:

• Rev 8:7 is the first day of the first year.
• 8:10-11 = Satan comes down, picture-in-picture, split-screen TV during Rev12, occurs at the third year but before he's thrown out of heaven so during the Rev12 fighting;
• 9:1, Satan petitioned for that key and uses it as part of the Rev 12 sequence of fighting God in heaven, so he gets his demand;
• Rest of Rev 9, first five months are reserved for torturing by the 200 million demons, again p-i-p for what's happening in Rev 12;
• Rev 11, Apollyon who came up from the Abyss in Rev 9, and after the Rev10 dramatic intermission (to set up the themes for the last 3.5 years).. in Rev11, he kills the Two Witnesses at Trib mid-point, which has to be a month after the first five months.
• Which is, when Satan gets thrown out of heaven, Rev 12.

So it looks like AFTER the five months ends, at the beginning of the sixth month, he kills them. So then the earthquake after the three days, then in the ensuing melee there's an escape window for at least the rest of the month. This fits well with the end of Daniel 12 difference between 1335 days and 1290 days, da? Forecasting, you'd better start obeying Christ's stricture on leaving without packing (in Matt24), beginning about 1221 days after the Trib starts, and no later than 1290 days after it starts, since the statue goes up on the 1290th day, when believer egress will be closed.

So it ends up being more than a month, really, sometime maybe mid 7th month of 3rd year, that statue is flown in or something, picking us up back at Rev 13. For they need time to reconstruct due to the earthquake, to make and fly in the statue from Rome, to establish communication: for starting at that 75 days, Satan indwells whoever is the western Anti-Christ, takes over, gets photographed as Messiah to wow people, makes treaty with the false prophet aka Jewish anti-christ of Daniel 11:35ff, etc.

Would make a great movie but awful time to be alive, if only Hollywood would tell the story as Bible does...

Anonynomenon | 14 Nov 2015, 00:22

Yes, I see what you mean now, but I don't know if I agree.

Why does it have to be one Trumpet per year? If your thinking Yom Theruah, then that would be 7 Trumpets in 7 years.

Wormwood is described as a falling flaming mountain (not a star). Seems more like its a meteor or something.

Now in the the 5th Trumpet, a falling star unlocks the Abyss. Notice its a star and not a mountain. So this looks like Satan's exile from Heaven.

The locust that rise with Apollyon have a slightly different description that the army of 200 million. So I think the 200 million are the 1/3 of stars that fell with Satan.

So my model places Trumpets 1-4 within the first 35 days (God's vote to scare earth straight). Then Apollyon's 150 days of torture start the first 42 months. Sometime after the torture campaigns comes the slaughter of the 6th Trumpet.

Then at the end of the first 42 months, Apollyon kills Two Witnesses.

So like I said, 35 days to let people know the Tribulation is here, then it gets real as 5th Trumpet starts the 1,260 days.

brainout | 14 Nov 2015, 00:55

It doesn't have to be one trumpet per year. But Rev 8:10 forward is definitely the third year, has to be at its start, because Rev 9's 200 million are let out, torture for five months, Apollyon is among them, so not out prior, and at Trib midpoint kills the Two Witnesses.

Whether there's more than one set of 200 million or whether the description is appositive of the same 200 million, we can look at later.

For now, you've got some hurdles. In every Dispie sect I know and Scripture too, Wormwood is universally understood to mean Satan, Rev 8:11 depicts him as a star, not a mountain, same as in Rev 9:1; falling from heaven is not the same as being CAST OUT (Rev 9:1's piptw for fall, but ballw = cast out in Rev 12:9).

So you got to explain how you can reverse those Scriptures or find others which override them to agree with the position you're taking..?

Anonynomenon | 14 Nov 2015, 01:48

Lol sorry, I confused the 2nd and 3rd Trumpets. So yeah, I can see Satan being Wormwood (bitter because his time is short).

But the locust from the Abyss had stingers on their tails, and they aren't numbered, whereas the 200 million have snakes on their tails. Thats just one of the differences, that seem pretty significant.

So you think Apollyon has to be released 150 days before the Two Witnesses are murdered. (By the way, does that 150 correspond to Noah's flood?)

Now I see why you think it has to be in the 3rd year.

I always thought Apollyon would terrorize people for 150 days (5 months), then hang back for 37 months until the time came to kill the Two Witnesses. Meanwhile, some time within those 37 months, the 6th Trumpet is blown.

I get you now. Don't know if I agree yet, but I get you.
That gives me something more to work with.

brainout | 14 Nov 2015, 05:51

Okay, well I'm not looking for agreement, only Scripture meaning we can prove. This is all the same group:

The Colonel maintains there are THREE demon armies. This is one of them.

Next, the Tartarus army, mentioned in Rev9:12-14, 17-19.

So now, verse 16: is 200 million 'horsemen' (riders) the sum total of both armies (cavalry portion), before going on to explain the 2nd's appearance?

I forget what the Colonel concluded and what he said was the third army. I haven't yet looked up my notes on this.

Anonynomenon | 14 Nov 2015, 06:36

Why would some be in the Abyss and some in Tartarus?

I'm also interested with Apollyon's 5 months and whether or not it parallels the flood...like a flood of locust.

brainout | 14 Nov 2015, 06:41

The abussos demons of Rev 9:3-11, I'm not sure why they are there, have to go look up my notes; but for Rev9:17ff's Tartarus, it's Jude 6 + Genesis 6 revolution, 2Peter 2:4 (which uses the term Tartarus, as does the LXX); and 1Pet3:19.

Apollyon was in abussos, or is Satan. Given the syntax of Rev 9:11, it seems like Apollyon is not Satan, but was down there with them. I don't see any text identifying him as Satan (you know, like sometimes the Angel of the Lord is later identified in context AS the Lord).

Unless, abussos is the generic term and for the same place, Tartarus is the official name, but used for Hebrew mayim. For in the OT, the term is used for 'the deep' as well. Verses (LXX): Prov. 30:16; Job 40:20; 41:24.

So Abbadon is not out in the world until that 3rd year, released by Satan, tormenting for the five months; after, he and the rest of the abussos demons seemingly must be part of the Army Groups (whether its total is 200 million or not).

Since your largest human Army Group is maybe one million, even with the demons being so efficient and of higher power, assuming a total of 200 million (not more) is staggeringly more than needed. So if the 'locust' Group(s) are outside that total..?

Again, I've not rechecked my notes or what others have said, am just looking de novo at the text. So nothing said is dogmatic.

Yeah, I forgot to talk about the 150 day parallel. Maybe it applies, because Daniel 9:26 talks about 'flood' .. of troops, Hebrew sheteph (LXX uses orge to translate it). Yet five months tormenting is only part of the whole. So too was the kickoff flood, though. The Flood lasted a year, video and its description's Word doc showing the verses is here. You can instead just grab the doc in the description, and you can buy Lewis' dissertation in Amazon (which I have, and don't find useful).

Anonynomenon | 14 Nov 2015, 17:31

I don't think Abbadon is Satan either, and I'm not sure that Tararus is opened with the Abyss at 5th Trumpet. I'd like to continue this portion of the conversation in an Abaddon thread. Will open that later.

Continuing with the flood parallel, it does say the 4 angels of the Euphrates are "reserved for the year, month, hour, and day". Is it possible that Abaddon's 5 months start off the year of terror? Like Noah's flood?

brainout | 14 Nov 2015, 21:04

Oh yeah, possible. What's striking is that the trumpets seem to go Trumpet 1=Year One, T2=Year Two, then what.. 3=Year Three, but 4567=Year Three also, as if concatenating the interval to monthly. For there's that 35 or 45 or 75 day hiatus at the end. Thieme had a different interp of it in the last class on Daniel, thinking it was an extension of time after the Trib ended, if I recall, so I'm accounting it differently, same 2556.75 but with the hiatus in the middle, counting 1335 backwards from the 2556.75 to get the Matt24 exit window in Rev 11 during the earthquake.

Overall, so maybe there is a parallel to the Flood Chrono, for the 150 is subdivided, too. Again, all this is preliminary, and I didn't parse the Greek to see if it's metered in Rev9. The Rev meter itself I only barely started, JohnDatelineMeters.htm. Change extension to 'pdf' if you don't have Bibleworks fonts, so can read the Greek.

Anonynomenon | 14 Nov 2015, 22:29

Ok. So flood started on what would be Pentecost, right?

So lets try to think like non-believers during Tribulation right now. I get stung by Apollyon's thugs and am in total pain for 5 month. That may not be enough to make me believe in Christ, but Apollyon is on the Anti-christ's side. Why would I race to the line to get my 666-mark, when Apollyon just tortured me for 5 months?

What if after the Two Witnesses are resuscitated, the ones who were stung, survive to believe?...Since the Flood started at Pentecost. Do you get me?

And what about those killed by the 200 million? They aren't believers, but are they against the Anti-christ & Co? Like I said why would the world race to serve a Beast that is in league with mass murderers?

That makes me wonder if Apollyon and the 4 angels of the Euphrates are leading a world wide fascist revolution on behalf of the Beast? Can't kill the believers, but they can kill whoever tries to "make war with the Beast".

brainout | 15 Nov 2015, 03:48

Not following you through all the specifics here. The 666 mark, whatever it is, wouldn't necessarily be sought because someone likes to have it, but because you can't live without it. So think of Apollyon etc as SS, and folks cave in. Just like Hitler's Germany. That's also in keeping with the end of your post, below and above.

So now the question: Why did people cave into Hitler and Stalyin and Mao? They were all mass murderers. Here's why: go watch old Hitler movies the Nazis made, on Youtube, read the neo-Nazi comments. Click here and do that (videos since deleted). Quite chilling.

So that's one reason they might LOVE to 'race' as you say: the believers/jews are blamed, so the regime stirring up the hatred of the masses, can use that hatred like a laser canon against believers and Jews. It's not like we've never seen regimes do that before. It's not like we don't see irrational hatred of us now.

In all those dippy Trib movies, that's one theme they get right. Granted, we believers are pretty stupid, self-righteous and snarky, but we don't deserve the vehemence or the level of criticism we get, and GOD shouldn't be lumped with us.. but always is. I've always been critical of Christianity and Judaism since quite young, raised in both (child of mixed marriage). But never did it dawn on me that GOD had anything to do with what the Christians and Jews kept doing poorly. For many of us, that same 'history' is true. We don't lump God with the bad behaviors, for we know there is a difference.

But if you WANT to be able to say God is bad, you lump Him with people who are provably bad. Just as, I'm sure a few Jews and Christians in Germany were bad, that's how groups are: always a few bad, at minimum. So now, to tarnish the whole and God in the bargain, well... Kristallnacht isn't far away, and thus needing 666 or Nazi Party Membership isn't far away either.

So the vehemence is really against GOD, and when that happens, any argument or murdering can be justifiable, so long as the ones murdering are also against GOD. Happens today easily on a lesser level, Calvies banding together with other calvies no matter how goofy their arguments -- and everyone else is 'heretic', Calvie buzzword; Catholics with Catholics, same buzzword, +Inquisition; Muzzies with Muzzies, buzzword changes to najis, +jihad; atheists with atheists, buzzword changes to FSM.

Frankly, they are all quite irrational, no one stepping back to separate FACT from fiction. It's taking the fruit from the woman all over again.

FACTS: God exists or does not, Bible verse means xyz or does not. THOSE FACTS have nothing to do with what 'group' you like or belong to. But we go by the GROUP, not by facts.

Finally, I don't get why the thing starts on Pentecost. Care to elaborate?

Anonynomenon | 15 Nov 2015, 04:22

I was just speculating.

I was thinking Pentecost, because that's the day Noah's flood started.

The waters persisted 150 days, and Apollyon's campaign is 5 months long. Then you have the 4 angels from Euphrates, "prepared for the hour, day, month, and year".

If there is a flood parallel, then does it follow the same schedule?

brainout | 15 Nov 2015, 04:31

Okay, understood. I don't know if Trib is intended to follow the same schedule. Maybe yes maybe no. There has been a contention for centuries that Trib begins on Rosh HaShanah. No way to prove that, we don't know the day or hour, and EVERY generation can be the Trib generation, that's why we're all in Groundhog Day, Dan9:26c (or as Robbie Dean put it, 'time bubble').

That 'prepared' clause in Rev 9:15 is eerie. But of course God would know the timing, and we still don't.

guest | 15 Nov 2015, 04:37

Here's a short visual of normally "good" people getting caught up in the insanity of their fellow man. Its amusing yet telling. No one with Bible doctrine would get tripped up so easily in either an elevator or the Apocalypse.

brainout | 15 Nov 2015, 04:44

That's not a disputation, but an add-on.

brainout | 15 Nov 2015, 05:32

LOL good rejoinder. 🕵️

Was just reading the comments to a really boring Stalyin reminiscence video here. Notice how dead the speaker is. Imagine having a soul that small, focusing on inanities, never on the big stuff. Scary.

So now, look at all the neo-commies, commenting. So if you asked them what they were doing, wow: they'd want to shoot you.

Goes back to what you were saying in the Prez threads.

brainout | 15 Nov 2015, 11:05

Just did a video with that assumption, reading Rev8ff live onscreen, commenting on the text. But not posted, because my video is boring.

Idea that trumpets were sounded for events and times, annually, monthly, holidays, convocations, so that's why the trumpets are used here.

So as I was talking, it occurred to me you can read the third trumpet as Year 3 Month 1 (beginning, first day), fourth as Year 3 month 2 (again beginning), so then fifth -- which begins Rev 9 -- would be Year 3 month 3 (again beginning).

So look: Abib/Nisan, Ziv, Sivan (month when Pentecost begins). That plays into a different common contention about when Trib begins, but yet doesn't confirm it, as there are TWO accounting years, and the one beginning in Abib, is regnal (as well as sacred, Judah's kings dated their reigns from Abib 1).

So it wouldn't matter if the Trib began 'on time' at the beginning of Rosh Hashana. It would still be deemed the third year, but now maybe the actual month is depicted: on the sacred/regnal calendar, which still doesn't tell you whether Trib itself began PER that calendar, or the other one (or any at all).

And notice that's playing to Noah, too: whose birthday, going by the math, is likely what we now call 1Passover.

I ended the video on that idea, didn't spend any time explaining it. Not sure the video is necessary, as the idea is probably clear to you already.

Now, what if:

1st Trumpet lasts a year. So the 'advertisement' that the Trib has begun, is not a bunch of suddenly-empty clothing falling on airplane seats and sidewalks; rather per BIBLE, lot of firey hail mixed with blood, which burns.. 1/3 earth, 1/3 trees and all grass; but it takes time for the pundits to analyze and calculate the damage extent. Hence I'm thinking it takes a year. So too, did the Exodus plagues. So too, was Noah in the boat.

2nd Trumpet occurs Year 2, and is remedial, since they didn't learn from Year One: your average pundit will call it an asteroid, and claim that the sea to blood is some kind of chemical in the asteroid, and all the dead fish and wrecked shipping, take a year or so for recovery. Meanwhile of course, some have calculated and notice oh, one third again and begin to think of Bible, but most others scoff.

3rd Trumpet occurs Year 3, on Passover (Noah's Birthday). Satan comes down JUST LIKE YEAR TWO ASTEROID, does the destruction himself (that third), and many people die. Objective is to create a catastrophe and blame believers for it, preparatory to announce himself as Messiah (for of course he knows the Trib sequence, too). So he wants people to believe his version of Bible prophecy, so he can a) win over the apostate, and b) bop believers into captivity or death. Cuz, now he can use the past 2 years, to make everyone want him (well, whoever he indwells, plus some guy in Israel who'll end up as the front man).

So oh how convenient, for REAL DEMONS to come out of imprisonment, beautiful and deadly.

4th Trumpet occurs 30 days later, since if you knew your Bible, you'd know to start counting the Omer at the end of Passover week, which including Passover's start (for those who do NOT know Bible and miscount it from the beginning).. is 30 days.

5th Trumpet occurs 57 days after Passover started, which is real Pentecost.. 50 days after the end of Passover week, per Numbers 28:26 which Jews perpetually misread. Even the misreaders all know the importance of 56.. or will know, by then (it's the most common meter in the Bible, difference between Passover and Pentecost, and Pentecost to 9th Av, amply documented in the Isaiah 53 meter, here:).

Sixth Trumpet then blows. Get the pun? Kicking off the sixth month! Now the 2nd demon army (not even pretending to be human, since the fake Messiah is supposed to have angels at his command, right) -- comes up and out. Killing what? 1/3 one-third ONE THIRD of humans. In the name of Messiah, of course!

Satan wins now no matter what. If they believe HE is the Messiah, then they side with him (if only to escape death). If they don't, they learn to hate 'Messiah', which he's not but Jesus is. No doubt it will be like Hitler's Germany, where the initial targets were Jews and anyone who couldn't be used to 'help the cause', to weed them out, make the remainder easier to manipulate. Which of course, this SS de novo, would do.

We know the 7th trumpet is at midpoint. We know the Two Witnesses are killed at midpoint. All that is introduced to us during the intermission tableau/mime of Rev 10 and first half of 11. So then all of Bul ends the sixth month+ maybe 12 days, and when the six month ends it's Trib midpoint, too. (This would support those who contend Trib begins on Rosh HaShana, which maybe was the old pre-Church schedule, I've not yet found it in Bible.)

So maybe just in time for 25 Chislev, the month following Bul, aka Chanukah, the LORD's birthday, our boys the Two Witnesses, get killed, or resurrected, or the earthquake happens.. or that statue is flown in.

And someone will say, 'well that's past the midpoint'. Not necessarily, depends on when the Trib actually began. Here, the accounting year is Jewish sacred. In terms of absolute time elapse from Trib start, and whether you're accounting solar or lunar, the actual date can still be Trib midpoint, 3.5 years after it actually began: there's maybe a 15-day variance, for example, between solar and lunar at this point (so 11/12 Chislev, 30 days later, is accounted by many lunar-keeping Jews and Christians who don't know Bible.. as Chanukah).

Stopping this rough-draft scenario, here.

Anonynomenon | 15 Nov 2015, 17:58

Excellent brainstorm. 👍 Very thought provoking and if you do get around to uploading that video, I will absolutely watch it.

I happen to believe that the Tribulation MIGHT begin on Yowm Theruah for two main reasons:

1. In Ezra's day, Jews re-entered the Land from Babylon on Yowm Theruah. Whether the reference to leaving Babylon in Revelation is figurative or not (I think its quite literal), it does parallel Ezra. And that would not be the first parallel to Ezra, drawn in Revelation.
2. The Two Witnesses are killed and rise 3.5 days later. That screams Passover to me. If Passover is midpoint, then Tribulation starts in Rosh Hashana. That would still apply to the future Tribulation since Revelation was written as an update.

That's all I got for now. Need to do some number crunching.

Anonynomenon | 16 Nov 2015, 06:29

Ok. What if we reversed the flood parallel? Noah's flood started on 11 Sivan which became Pentecost.

What if Apollyon starts his 5 months on 11 Khisleu instead? If the bisected calendar is intended to mirror itself, then 11 Khisleu would be the mirror to Pentecost, right?

brainout | 16 Nov 2015, 06:51

Yeah, you can argue that, but notice how if the Witnesses are killed on Chanukah (or resurrected, or the statue flown in), HIS birthdate (and the initial dedication date of the Temple Foundation, Haggai 2), that the whole of Rev 11 is witty. For your death day is your birthday, to heaven. They are standing at the Temple near its foundation, the Holy of Holies, fending everyone off for 3.5 years.

So too, 2nd Temple foundation began construction and got completed, then got stuck, hence Haggai was sent to chide Seed of Baal who God in Haggai 2 appoints Seed of Christ.

BTW, this would end up meaning that Trib starts on Pentecost. Just like Church did. Just like Noah's entrance into das Boot. Just like harvesting the Gentiles is supposed to. For technically, the remaining 3.5 on Abraham's too early maturation has to be paid back first. So if Chanukah when the two witnesses go up, now we are on Jewish time again but the fiscal year is HIS BIRTHDAY, same as 2nd TEMPLE's.

Yeah, Chanukah mirror to Pentecost (when John the Baptist born). So then the question for you is, does the math work so well in reverse? I didn't test it, since you will be. 😱👍

Anonynomenon | 16 Nov 2015, 07:16

The math works for my 35+1260+1260 model 14 Abib being mid-trib, but I doubt it works for yours. The problem is that I just can't prove or disprove any of it yet. So I'm stuck having to juggle multiple theories. It's rather frustrating.lol

But how does Chanuka mirror Pentecost? Chanuka is 24 Khisleu. The mirror to Pentecost would be 11 Kisleu: Yowm Theruah+14+57 days. Chanuka would be 12 days later.

brainout | 16 Nov 2015, 07:56

The mirror happens when someone's using lunar years instead of solar, as you are doing. So using lunar, the 'new' year begins 5 days too early. This is why Christ died on True Passover but celebrated official Passover 4 days early, as I tried to show in PassPlot.htm. The Jews had not intercalated for solar. Current scholarship seems to conclude that they only intercalated to create Adar Sheni every three or six years. The Bible shows that only one year wasn't intercalated, so apparently it's the first of a new delay cycle by the Sanhedrin. (Compare the wit John 12:12 compared to 13:1, skip of five days (4 in-between), then end John 18 versus Exodus 12, and you'll see he concatenates 4 days, playing on the 4 days from Arrest to Crucifixion as Preparation of the Lamb versus Slaying.)

So: if using lunar, there's a five-day 'drift' by year-end, so by three years, that drift is 15 days. 11+15=26, but as you know Jewish time a new day begins piggybacked on the old day, so then 25. Technically, 24th after sundown, so if there's a leap day or some other drift in the vernal equinox then 11+15 can equal 24 or 25.

Remember, the numbers would be there so the Trib folk can calculate where they are. So for all we know, this brainstorming thread will end up having at least some right answers they will somehow find. There have always been and will always be a lot of false ideas. So here, the calculation METHOD being fleshed out, will likely help. We won't be here. They will be alone. How they will find this thread when you and I will be dead, who knows.

If I recall correctly, at the 2009 Chafer Seminary conference or maybe in his studies at that point, Robbie Dean posited a hiatus between Rapture and Trib Begins, kinda like you are doing. I am not sure of the details.

EDIT: notice that a mirror can work in reverse, so now we have either a Chanukah start or a Pentecost start to Trib. I pick Pentecost as it makes Church time 'even', starting and ending on the Harvesting of the Gentiles. Now, that plays into your posit of delay (which I don't hold to, but Robbie Dean does), for then the time between Pentecost and Rosh HaShanah is likely for the "hiatus" (Dean's term for it, as I recall, but you can find out from his church, I don't go there).

So now, back to Noah. The next benchmark after the 150 is 93 days, Gen 8:5 (use LXX, not BHS). So the gap is 93 days. It won't work, from Pentecost. By contrast, if 12 Chislev solar=Chanukah lunar is midpoint, then +93 takes you to 15 Adar, the 'sixth month' of the civil calendar, too, aka Purim.

Or something like this. For you really hit the nail on the head when you posited a comparison with Noah's timetable. ONLY GOD CAN ORCHESTRATE TIME. So no matter what excuses people come up with, if stuff that happens is otherwise explained away, then how come it's always happening on BIBLE dates? Hmmm? That, no one can invent or explain away.

Of course, our problem then will be that we've messed up our calendars. The Kaluach is way off since Josephus, 346 years too short, they cut out the Persian years (Google on that; so it's really Year 6121, not 5776). Pope Gregory cut 10 days from our calendar in the 500's (I want to say it was in 582), and I forget all the adjustments after that.

So God will be doing it likely at a poetic time for doctrinal meaning, but many who don't care to learn the BIBLE's calendar will miss it. In retrospect -- meaning, for those then alive and learning Bible -- it will make perfect sense.

This sounds like predicting the day or hour, but in fact you see we cannot: if only because, we've messed up our calendars so much.

Anonynomenon | 16 Nov 2015, 13:42

Im not using a lunar year. I'm using Rosh Hashana as the starting point instead of Vernal Equinox. So Rosh Hashana+14 days mirrors Passover+57 days mirrors Pentecost. Thats 11 Khisleu, right?

brainout | 16 Nov 2015, 13:53

RH+14=Passover start, and that's when Sukkot starts. It too, lasts a week. So if we count 57 from Sukkot start, that's 14 Tishri/Ethanim +57.. yeah would take you to 11/12 Chislev. On solar. But remember, they won't be counting solar, they will be counting lunar, so to them the SAME COUNT ends up meaning Chanukah, if not intercalated for three years (which is likely, as Judaism will be in hiding by then).

But now, how do you count the five months, and how do you justify the initial 35 day hiatus, with what Scripture? I'm not trying to dispute, but to clarify.

Anonynomenon | 16 Nov 2015, 16:40

I think the Two Witnesses would probably resolve any calendar disputes.

Im thinking Rosh Hashana starts 35 days. Then starts the Two Witnesses' 1260 day ministry, but Apollyon would rise 35 days after Two Witnesses begin.

So 35+(35+1225). Or 70+1225. That would still place Apollyon in first year, not third. I'm not sure he has to kill witnesses immediately after the 5 months.

Lets say the 5 months dovetail with the 200 million assault: 150+215=365. The 35 day warning from the Two Witnesses + 5th & 6th Trumpets combined would be 35+365=400 days total. Then at the end of the Two Witnesses' ministry, Apollyon kills them.

Again, I like the way it looks, but I cant prove any of it yet.

brainout | 16 Nov 2015, 17:05

Well, there are so many hurdles to overcome with that scenario. You'd have to contend Satan falls immediately, justify how 35 days, why not solar: because 1260 is lunar, not solar; solar midpoint is 1278.375, 2566.75/2, and Rev 11 says they trample for 42 months AFTER, and 1260+1290=2550, which is more than lunar, a week less than solar.

Did you meter Rev 9 or 11? I didn't do that yet.

Anonynomenon | 16 Nov 2015, 18:57

No, have not metered any of Rev. Even if I did, I wouldn't know how to understand it.

1260 are not lunar. A lunar year has 354 days, not 360.

But in either case, I'm using the Solar calendar, over laying the 1260 days. Either way, there is a 35 day hiatus somewhere. Its either in the beginning, middle, or end. I can't justify a hiatus in the end, and to put it in the middle seems awkward to me. I think the two sets of 1260 days run back to back. Good days and bad days (Psalm 90). First 1260 good for believers, last 1260 bad for believers. To me that rules out a mid-trib hiatus.

The point of 1260 is not to be lunar or solar, because in actuality its neither. The point is to divide the days into 7s. It fits my understanding of the Solar calendar perfectly. All segments are divisible by 7, and the last remaining day is cut by the Lord Himself.

I don't see a problem with Satan falling early. It makes sense to me. And it makes sense to me that Apollyon be released early too.

Anyways, I have prove it and I don't know how. I'm hoping my Apollyon thread will shed more light somehow.

brainout | 16 Nov 2015, 21:02

1260 is lunar. 360 day year, 12 months. There are two types of lunar, and the 360 version is what Jewish calendar uses. It rounds the 29.5 to 30, that's all.

You can't just claim that 35 is right. That's like GeneZ claiming Pre-Incarnate Soul using words which don't mean only soul. 35 is a number, even an important number, but its usage is nowhere what you're claiming for the period.

That Satan falls early makes sense to you, is similar. Gene wants the PreIncarnate Soul to be true, it makes sense to him. But where is the Bible proof? Without that, you got nothing to stand on.

I mean, you guys can believe whatever you want. But without Scripture to back you up...

As for Scripture backup for the MIDDLE, there is some.. Daniel 12.

Statue is set up by 1290 days into Trib, it says.
Blessed is anyone who's been OUT of there for 1335 days!

Overlap is 45 days. IN THE MIDDLE. So 2556.75-1335=1221.75, beginning of the exit window Matt 24 warning. You can't put it at the beginning, and since it's a true solar year (which sevens at 364, time Noah in Das Boot), the mid-year isn't 1260, either. But, 1277.375.

Apollyon is not mentioned until Rev 9, Devil is not there at the beginning, so neither is Apollyon. So now what?

Sorry to be rough here, but we can't just claim something in Bible is true because we like it. Dunno about you, but there are many doctrines in the Bible which are not at all likeable, to me.

Anonynomenon | 16 Nov 2015, 23:29

Don't worry about being blunt, I understand exactly what you're saying and you aren't wrong for saying it. I guess the only way to know the sequence for sure would be to meter Revelation like you said. I don't know if I'm prepared to do that. If I do, I'll post it. Until then, speculation doesn't mean much of anything.

brainout | 17 Nov 2015, 00:04

Okay, well I did meter Revelation 1, but I'm not sure what it all means yet. It should be an outline for the entire history (meter is 364, like Noah's year in da boat, plays on the four 91's in Eph1:3-14 structure), see JohnDatelineMeters.pdf or use htm or doc if you have Bibleworks fonts. Whatever it means, should be reflected in each other chapter, but how LONG the metering goes in each chapter, I don't know. I'm fairly certain each one is metered, given the import of knowing how to count the meter then. People then will have to be memorizing Scripture as in ancient times, for Scripture will be like Farenheit 451, then. God help us if we stop using paperbacks and hardbacks, for it will be easy to instantly kill Scripture on the internet.

I don't know when I'll have time to get back to the metering. I did vids on it, though, and will create the thread in TextCrit.

Anonynomenon | 17 Nov 2015, 05:00

I was poking around in Revelation 7 and found what looks like metering. Found some in Revelation 8 too. I was trying to focus on the sealing of the 144K. I'm pretty sure its all metered. I just wonder where a good starting point would be for sequence? Would it be with the 144K or with the Trumpets, or maybe Chapters 9 & 11 like you suggested? Not sure.

brainout | 17 Nov 2015, 07:16

Well, the idea is to parse until it stops metering in even sevens, starting with the first word in the chapter. Of course, the problem is, the 'chapter' might not be right, since the writer didn't use that, example of how Isaiah 53 doesn't start at 53:1, but in 52:13 (samex is at the end of 52:12). So you have to look at the syntax of the prior 'chapter' to see where the real chapter begins, and then start your count.

Then see what the patterns are per CLAUSE, not per verse, like I show in each of the meter videos. There will be a pattern. The first two sevenings are datelines, and the rest goes on until it totals out at some ultimate seven, and then the meter count stops, the rest of the chapter is just plain text.

Here, you've got with elisions, a potential first dateline; you have to keep going until it stops sevening to be sure that's a dateline, even. John is very precise about his dating system, and frankly he uses each clause for the date (though doesn't have to). He might not be using a dateline at all, since he's already disclosed in the text that Rev is a vision; so presumably happens all in one day, like any good Greek play's time backdrop (hahaha, Day of the Lord vision on the Lord's Day, get the pun). For his vision is a Greek quadrilogy, Chaps 1-3=Church; 4-18 Trib; 19-20 Mill; 21 Eternity; 22:6ff, Epilogue.

So here,
15 years after/before x and
10 years after/before y and
12 years after/before z,
11 years after/before aa
and so on.
John might instead use the more traditional dating system, in which case
63 years after/before n and/or
63 sevens after/before b,

So then what are the events tagged by these meters? THAT is the sleuthing needed. The answers are deliberate choices which elucidate the doctrinal meaning of the text.

• 63 years back means nothing.
• Can't go forward, he's writing only 6 years from the expected Mill =94AD=Christ age 97.
• 63 sevens back, Philip of Macedon invaded Thessaly and that didn't work out too well:
• so does John thus tag Daniel 9's meter timeline end point, so to incorporate by reference all of Daniel 9-12?
• Possibly. For his text will concern a new world conqueror who will actually be the 'son' of (the anti-christ indwelt as a son of the indweller). And of course, Rev 7:1 is still Day One of the Tribulation, so 70-7. But then, you already knew that. 👍

See? Likewise, each of the variables xyz etc. and nb if used, must be Biblically significant dates. For the numbers are always used to elucidate the meaning of the text, just as Moses, Isaiah, and Daniel do with their meters:

• Moses writes Genesis1/Psalm90 in the 1050th year after the Flood, when he's 119 years old (just before the year of his death); his total pre-Christ meter in Gen 1 is 1050, so it's played to his theme for Genesis: idea of first civilization unit, origin of the people of Messiah. Notice the equidistance: Moses' terminus leaves 1050 years until Messiah born. (2666 FAF +40 = when he writes, +350 for judges = meter in Psalm 90, +1050=4106, Christ's then scheduled birth +91+7 ellipsis=Mill then-scheduled start in His 98th year; He ends up being born 3.5 years earlier, but potentially could have still been born 4106 From Adam's Fall, when Moses writes.)
• Isaiah writes 42 sevens from David's birth and from Moses endpoint (plus 10); and, in the 42nd year of his own ministry. Metrical theme is first David's birth to last David's death, 1078 (with ellipses counted), and 💡
• Daniel writes 49 years after the Temple went down and 73 sevens from Moses' Psalm 90 endpoint (of 1050BC); Daniel's 742 sevens (x7=1050-56), subsevened into the numbers God will use textually in REPLY, piggybacks on Isaiah using the actual history of kings from David at Hebron to his own captivity then forward to the time of the the Greeks (stopping at what would become Philip of Macedon), petitioning for Temple Restoral given God's promise of the Prophesied Ancient of Days Christos winning, in the end.

So John will be metering on a theme which is doctrinally significant to the text, to elucidate what that text means. Here, the four angels told to hold back the winds (which creates a calamity on earth). If the 63 is right, it means VOTE SHORT, and of course since the Trib is 7 and that's why it occurs, you can well argue that the meter is doctrinally-significant to the text so is likely right.. but you have to keep metering, to see for sure. There has to be some discernible pattern, as noted above for Moses, Isaiah, Daniel.

Anonynomenon | 17 Nov 2015, 18:23

I'm might continue metering Rev 7. I figured the "meta touta" was a good starting place. Do you see a better starting place based on syntax?

brainout | 17 Nov 2015, 18:28

Agreed, John subdivides his text using meta tauta. Here, split screen TV, blocking off the Trib from Church age (last meta tauta was at Rev 4:1, same moment in time, so first day of Trib). So it's a great place to start.

Here are the verses using the phrase: Rev. 1:7, 19; 4:1; 7:1, 9; 9:12; 15:5; 18:1; 19:1, 20:3.

brainout | 08 Jan 2016, 11:26

Ted Cruz' father is a Dominionist, so it seemed good to make a thread on it here. You can look up a number of articles on the false doctrine of Dominionism. I'll put links here which seem useful.

Basically, it's an outgrowth of Replacement Theology, holding that Christ will not return until believers christianize the world. In this, Dominionism comes closest to Islam, for that too is the point of Islam (which also teaches that Christ will return). Therefore all eschatology is denied or recast as the eventuality of Christians making the world ready for Christ, by converting everyone. So the Jews have no national eschatological place. For Church has replaced Israel, see.

So it's an evil doctrine, totally anti-Biblical, yielding of course all the poltical activism and uniting of Church and State that God so vehemently separated in the Mosaic Law. But Dominionists conveniently overlook the massive amounts of OT and NT verses/doctrines which prove their positions, ant-Christ.

Dave Hunt writes against Dominionism, naming those involved in it, here: Kingdom/Dominion Theology - Part I February 1, 1987. Not saying I'm a fan of Dave Hunt, I don't know his stuff well enough, but the article rings true.

Will edit this post de vez en cuando as I find more useful links. If you want to know Ted Cruz' dad's horrific teaching, just type in 'Rafael Cruz' in Youtube and pick any video where his dad (white hair, heavy Cuban accent) talks.

Anonynomenon | 09 Jan 2016, 00:04

It's interesting how America tends to jump back and forth between immoral degeneracy (liberalism) and moral degeneracy (dominionism) when selecting leaders....never any middle ground. It shows that we are a nation with a weak pivot, and our pastors are delivering the wrong message.

brainout | 09 Jan 2016, 04:20

Yeah, well the truth is you live the spiritual life in your HEAD, which sounds suspiciously like the FSM or a copout. I get that. But we have almost nothing on Christ for the first 30 years, so He had ALREADY grown and the result is He walks and talks a lot. That's it.

Meanwhile, everyone is saying that doo-dooing is spiritual. Tough sell, to instead just learn and live on Bible...

brainout | 28 May 2017, 07:15

I haven't updated it, wrote its first five chapters in 2006: PDR.pdf

I don't like parts of it, but still it's a first draft for brainstorming. Write a chapter on yourself, since YOU are in this Trial!

The novel is told from the DEMONS' point of view. What all this is like for THEM. Uses all the material in my LordvSatan webpages that I wrote 2001-2006. Goal is to test the accuracy of the ideas in those pages by trying to 'play' them as a novel. So be skeptical, all this is but theorizing.

Converting PDR to audio, using Firefox addin Text2Voice software (when you convert anything to txt or html great British voices can read it aloud, up to 1.24 hours, and you can download the audio). The newer version is 'Speechify', but I can't get it to work. Maybe you can. So here's the resulting audio of the book:

Novel stops there for now.